KAREN BREWSTER: I'm going to do a new intro. This is Karen Brewster with Pat O'Leary, continuing our interview for the Iditarod National Historic Trail Project Jukebox. We're doing this via Zoom. It's July 3rd, 2024. We started yesterday doing this, but Pat's Internet in Seward was not cooperating, so we decided to stop and continue today.

So, thank you, Pat, for putting up with all this technology. PAT O'LEARY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So according to my notes, where we left off yesterday, I had asked you about, you know, how you found places to re-route the trail that had been covered by the railroad or the highway.

And so, you were sort of talking about some of those sections and how you figured out how to put in a new trail.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. And, you know, we did -- we did a lot of -- Well, looking at the maps first, you know, mostly quad maps that we had at the time and some Google Earth stuff.

And then pretty much a -- a technician that worked for me in trails. And we had an engineer that was specialized in -- He had a lot of special training in trails that they did a lot of the layout on the ground, looking at the sites, trying to get across -- where good creek crossings are.

And, you know, it was, it -- it took 'em pretty much all summer to locate these different segments and that stuff.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you didn't necessarily put in the trail parallel to the road or the railroad? You found a new, better place?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. You know, what we tried to do was tie into existing trails. The trail around Bear Lake, the Trail Blazers had cut a -- a route around the lake, which, you know, the railroad pretty much and -- and the highway runs up on the west side. So this went around and hit some old logging roads between Snow River and -- and Bear Lake.

And, you know, we did a little modification from where they had logged it out a number of years ago. There was no tread.

But then we had -- we worked up a contract for that section. We had a contractor construct it and that. So that was quite a -- quite a project going around the lake. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

PAT O'LEARY: And that had to do some blasting. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

PAT O'LEARY: And one of the big things was there's a creek there. And we had a -- it took -- we did a different contract for the creek and -- For the bridge, I mean, in the creek, you know, over it.

And that was brought it in the wintertime over the ice and set in a -- a kind of a -- it was a pretty much a canyon creek. You know, steep banks and that stuff. So it turned out to be a pretty nice project.

I was pretty leery of them taking a big excavator out on the lake. But they had checked with, actually, I think the military about their tracked rigs on -- on lakes and what they -- you know, did some ice testing and that kind of stuff. So that -- that worked out real well. KAREN BREWSTER: That's good. Yeah.

PAT O'LEARY: So that was one section, you know. We still are working on -- the Forest Service is working on the piece along Kenai Lake, which is above the highway. Was tied in with the Victor Creek Trail and the Ptarmigan Creek Trail by Ptarmigan Campground. Just above that.

They had, I think a year or so ago, they had some volunteers from Alaska Trails come down and help on that section. So that's still -- they have a -- a bridge over Victor Creek that's going to be pretty spectacular.

KAREN BREWSTER: It's quite impressive that put so much money into this trail. I mean, like, how do you get over Turnagain Pass? I mean --

PAT O'LEARY: Well, they -- that -- that, I'm at -- that section of the trail, I -- I did a little recon on it, but the -- that's on the Glacier Ranger District. So, you know, my counterpart there, Allison Rein, she -- she laid out a lot of that section of the trail.

It goes from Johnson Pass on the east side of the highway up through -- You know, it comes across -- there's a bridge, oh, about a quarter mile in from the east side wayside rest area. And it crosses -- oh, I forget the name of the creek there. And then on -- on down, and they have a small trailhead at one of the pull-offs on the highway there.

And now they're working with -- I mean, I -- I was up in Anchorage last week, and they're actually doing a paved trail around the arm (Turnagain Arm) there.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, by Portage Glacier turn-off? PAT O'LEARY: By Portage, you know, yeah, yeah. So --

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I was wondering if the original Iditarod Trail, did it go to Hope, and then they took a boat across, or did they actually walk all the way around the inlet (Cook Inlet)?

PAT O'LEARY: No, they did -- There's multiple -- multiple ways that they -- they went, really. Yeah, some of 'em worked their way around the arm there, you know, to Crow Pass. Some of 'em went to Hope.

And, you know, some of them even went -- came in to Whittier. Well, what was -- Whittier didn't exist at that time, but that arm and went over Portage Glacier, and then continued on, you know.

Any way they could to get -- get in there -- get into the gold fields, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Yeah, well, I was saying that I have a friend who used to do trail building, and she always said, "The terrain told you what to do." Like it told you where to put the trail.

And it sounds like that's -- PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. Yeah, it -- KAREN BREWSTER: -- some of what, while you're looking at maps and recon, you can figure out, well, that place is too steep, or where's the good place to cross the creek, things like that?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. You have to -- you have to do quite a bit of studying, you know, with -- We were using Google Earth on some of those, which -- which helped.

And then, you know, just -- you have to go down and out and ground proof it then. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. PAT O'LEARY: Also.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. So you got involved with the trail through your work, but why did you think it was important to recognize the Iditarod Trail and kind of re-create the southern portion?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, I -- You know, long distance trails take -- I don't know, there's something special about 'em. I worked -- I'd just started working on what they call the North Shore Trail along Lake Superior when I was working on the Superior National Forest.

And then I transferred to the Targhee National Forest in Eastern Idaho, and they were starting the Continental Divide Trail there.

And so I got up here and, you know, got involved with the Trail Blazers, and -- and they kind of helped push me along a little bit. I was the Forest Service rep, and I would get grilled because we weren't -- weren't moving very fast on that.

And but -- but slowly and -- and -- and I do like history and the -- the trail -- the Iditarod Trail is really a big part of Alaska history.

KAREN BREWSTER: Certainly. And it's a part that I think a lot of people don't know about, especially the southern portion. They just think of the dog race, and that's only a part of it.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, yes. Yeah. Yeah, there was just -- I mean, when you think about how many people were up in Flat and Iditarod, you know, at the time.

And that was all conveyed to me, you know, through the Trail Blazers and their -- Lee Poleske would put out a monthly write-up on things that was happening, you know, in the past.

Those were big towns, and there's nothing there anymore, you know. So it just fell apart after the gold was gone.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, there was no -- no reason for to be there for those people anymore, I guess. PAT O'LEARY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so, yeah, you were talking about long trails. So as a planner or manager, how do you manage such a long trail like that?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, the Forest Service has -- has standards, you know, and so once you get it on the books, and that, you know, you -- you only have so much money for -- for everything, and you just kind of pick and choose what -- what -- where -- where those -- you know, where the best place to put the, you know, annual maintenance stuff.

And, you know, I don't -- I don't know if we've done enough in interpretation of the trail. You know, that's one thing I think the Forest Service hasn't pushed very much.

KAREN BREWSTER: And who would be responsible for that? Would that have been you as the trail planner or they -- an interpretive person?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, yeah, normally, I think it would have been, you know, working with an interpreter to write up some -- what we call Recreation Opportunity Guides, ROGs. R-O-Gs is what we call 'em.

And it talks about different things about -- about the different trails, like the Resurrection Pass Trail is a National Recreation Trail, and it has several different ROGs on -- on the different segments, you know, talking about the trail. And getting that out to the public and that stuff.

But, I think eventually when this is all tied through, there will be more information on it, but it's -- it's -- We could have done a better job, I think, at -- at -- at pushing some of it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Is there any signage? I mean, I know downtown in Seward, the Trail Blazers did a lot of work on Mile Zero and all that, but farther up on the Forest Service sections, is there any signage?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, at the trailheads that tie into the -- to the trail, they actually built some pretty nice bulletin boards with -- with different trail information on it.

I don't know how much of the history gets put on it. It's a lot of different things about, you know, camping in bear country and different things, but it does identify the -- the -- the historic trail.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. It doesn -- (clears throat) Excuse me. It does indicate this is part of the Iditarod Historic Trail? PAT O'LEARY: Yes. Yes.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. So, when you started and you started getting pressure from the Trail Blazers, did you have any specific goals, things you wanted to accomplish for the trail?

PAT O'LEARY: You know, I -- I don't really -- I think back and it was just really hectic. Everything was. So I don't know if I really had any goals. I was just trying to keep my head above water dealing with the Iditarod Trail, Russian River Anglers Trail, and some of the other projects that we had going.

I mean, I -- I -- I did want to see as much get done as possible, you know, while we had, you know, the opportunity to do it. So we -- You know, it was pretty -- pretty hectic those few years.

And then we had a couple of -- we had young kids, too, so I was running both ways, you know. And -- and my wife worked for the Forest Service also.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, yeah, and the Kenai Anglers Trail is also not in Seward, so you'd have to go -- wha -- to Cooper Landing or something? PAT O'LEARY: Well, to Cooper Landing, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, Cooper Landing. Between Cooper Landing and -- and checking out some of the -- you know, along the Seward Highway where -- where the trail was. Whatever --

Once we had contractors going, you had to do inspections pretty -- pretty regularly. I would try to get out at least once a week and check my contractors.

KAREN BREWSTER: So contractors, you're talking about what type of contractors? Like trail building contractors?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, we had two -- two different big contracts. One was from the southern section -- from Bear Lake actually all the way through to the Primrose Trail by the south end of Kenai Lake.

And that -- that contract was a guy from Northern Idaho who came up and bid on that trail. He had done a number of other trails for the Forest Service in the Lower 48.

And then from Mile 18, the east side of the bridge, the Snow River Bridge, to say to Victor Creek. And then we -- we skipped -- because we didn't have a bridge in, we skipped over and -- and went from Ptarmigan Creek to Bot Lake, which is just a small lake on the east side of Lower Trail Lake. That was another contract that we had with another person from the Lower 48.

KAREN BREWSTER: So these are people who specialize in trail work?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, we didn't have anybody up here at the time that was able to come up with all the requirements that were needed for -- to meet the job, you know, that -- that we were requiring. So --

KAREN BREWSTER: What kinds of --?

PAT O'LEARY: They -- they had to be bonded. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

PAT O'LEARY: They had to be bonded. And, you know, have some exper -- Have experience and things like that.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, yeah. And I've done interviews with people about the Chilkoot Trail, you know. And that trail work was all done by, you know, seasonal Park Service trail crews. PAT O'LEARY: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So it's interesting that the Forest Service doesn't have that sort of a setup. You had to contract out.

PAT O'LEARY: Well, our -- our trail crew was working on other projects. You know, we pretty much did a forest account crew at -- on the Russian River Anglers Trail, which we had restrictions on when we could work on that.

And then we had work on the Devil's Creek Trail and Resurrection Pass Trail. And I did have a crew on the Johnson Pass segment of the Iditarod also working on there.

So we had -- we had a big forest account crew. We had about at -- you know, when everything was going about 20 workers out. A couple of different teams and that stuff.

But we couldn't take on the big construction projects, you know, that -- that these new segments of trail actually needed.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. Well, and you talked about funding. That, you know, you had money at the time, so you wanted to take the opportunity. So, yeah, how did you get the funding? And how did you convince the Forest Service this was important and needed to be done?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, I think I mentioned earlier, we -- that we did get a grant. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

PAT O'LEARY: The Alaska -- ended up getting -- Alaska State Parks ended up getting the grant, but it was for the Iditarod. And so it was a pass-through to them and then to us. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

PAT O'LEARY: And so once that -- we -- we got that, that kind of set a priority for the Forest Service to, you know, put some effort into this, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

PAT O'LEARY: So I don't know what it would have been like if we hadn't got that grant. It would have been picking away with some volunteers at some small projects. But it was, you know, just shy of a million dollars to -- to get fired up on this project.

KAREN BREWSTER: And were you involved in writing and pushing for that grant? I know you said it went through Senator Stevens, but how that came about and getting that grant. I don't know if you talked about that before.

PAT O'LEARY: Well, I -- I -- I helped a (Kenai Peninsula) Borough person. And I was trying to think of her name. Margaret, but I'm not sure of her last name. The Borough, at that time, had a trails -- I would say it was a trails or recreation person.

I don't know if they had special funds for that or what, but anyways, later on they had a vote and they discontinued that, which I thought was a -- you know, kind of a sad thing because she was working across -- you know, with State Parks and with the Forest Service and with the Fish and Wildlife Service, trying to tie in all the stuff that's on Borough, you know, and that.

She was -- she was a real hand. She was the one that really did most of the writing on the grant. You know, I worked with her on it and that.

And I think they were the ones -- You know, Forest Service can't really lobby. And so they were lobbying for this. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, okay. PAT O'LEARY: Which -- which helped.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so once that funding was in place and it's like, okay, the trail's a priority, did you get support from your colleagues in the Forest Service or your superiors, whoever? Or did you have to sort of --?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, I think there was good -- good support. We also had hired in our Supervisor's Office kind of a dedicated trails person, because we had -- and she -- she became, actually, she was a National Trails person, but working in -- on the Chugach here.

So she -- she was a fireball. Her name was Jaime Schmidt, and got a lot of -- lot of -- You know, she kept pushing. She was a pusher and that stuff, and kept us on the ball.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I know sometimes dealing with those big federal agencies, this might be thought of as a little project and not so important and you would have faced a lot of obstacles?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. You know, one thing about the Chugach, which I was really happy to end up up here for my career was it's a recreational forest. It's not tied to timber and getting the cut out. And that's -- it was a real bonus because recreation took kind of precedence on a lot of things here. So we -- we did get a lot of support that way.

If anything, what happens is when there's a change in -- in personnel, and I think that's what happened between when they got the (comprehensive management) plan written. I mean, there was a lot of enthusiasm about it and everything. And then, you know, there was a change probably in the later '80s and that stuff.

And -- and that again, after -- I retired in 2012 and maybe -- and my boss retired, I think it was 2014 or '15. Then there was a change and it's -- it's been kind of slack.

But now the Long Trail has put it back in the limelight and they have a -- a good trails person, who actually worked for me as a seasonal in the SO. In the Supervisor's Office there and pushing for things.

The right-of-ways were -- were always a bit of an issue.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, that was my next question. Is what about, yeah, right-of-ways or purchasing land and things like that?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, you know, the Forest Service should have been in the beginning, you know, after the -- after the lands or after the plan, going to the plan and -- and telling the state that -- that, you know, this trail's going to be going through here and we want to retain a right of way. And it didn't always happen.

And so when we started doing this, we had to go back to the state and -- and obtain right-of-ways. And sometimes that didn't always, you know, go real smoothly.

It still isn't going very smoothly, because they gave us -- they gave the Forest Service like a five-year right of way -- uh, five-year easement. Temporary easement it is.

And then they -- so the Forest Service was supposed to be doing something on some of these things and get it -- then it gets surveyed and then the easement becomes permanent.

On some of the sections, it didn't get -- it didn't get done within the five years. I mean, some work was done on it, but maybe not documented and not surveyed. And those easements have kind of lapsed. And they're -- they're working on getting those back now.

KAREN BREWSTER: So even -- so these are state lands that are within the boundaries of Chugach National Forest?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, what it was was, you know, the state was allowed so much -- so -- so many acres of land at statehood. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

PAT O'LEARY: And so they -- they were in the process of selecting lands. And, of course, they selected most of the lands adjacent to the highway for ease of development and that stuff. You know, they didn't want the -- the mountain tops and the glaciers and things like that.

So all the way up, like from Seward to Snow River, there's lands that were selected. And then over the years, some of them have been transferred and easements weren't kept for them.

The opportunity was to get them before they transferred. Like all of our other trails. Like Johnson Pass Trail, the first piece along Lower Trail Lake, or Upper Trail Lake, was all transferred to the state, but because we had a trail in there, we were able to keep a 60-foot easement for management of that trail and that.

But some of the sections that weren't constructed, they're having to go back and -- and re-work and re-ask for these easements.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And the state is not always wanting to give easements?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, sometimes they're -- they're -- You know, it -- it puts -- it puts a restriction on their lands that they selected. And so that --

You get -- you get a -- a head of DNR (Department of Natural Resources) that, you know, favors recreation and trails and things can go pretty smoothly. And then you get one that favors other development, you know, on state lands and it might not go as smooth as possible.

KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-mm. Okay. Yeah, it's -- Depends on who's in charge, right? PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, it sure does.

KAREN BREWSTER: And I know on other parts of the trail, BLM has been involved in doing trail shelters. Was there any of that happening in the southern portion or any talk to do that? PAT O'LEARY: No, not for BLM. KAREN BREWSTER: No, no, from the Forest Service.

PAT O'LEARY: And I don't know. Oh, and -- and so maybe I misunderstood you.

KAREN BREWSTER: Because the southern portion is managed by the Forest Service. There's no BLM lands down there, correct?

PAT O'LEARY: Yes. Yeah, that's the way it is. There's -- you know, the Forest Service -- because most of it went through the -- the Chugach National Forest, the Forest Service took the lead on -- on it.

And there is some limited number of borough lands that the trail goes through. And those, I have a feeling that there's no easements on those. I think that they need to -- to get those in place.

And then you have DNR lands, a lot of those were lands that have been transferred from the Forest Service to the state on quite a bit of the trail, the way it goes through it.

So had to work closely with DNR to get the easements in place. Or if we don't have 'em in place, they're -- they don't have the right easements in place, we need to -- you know, they need to continue working on that.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. It's very complicated. I think for most people who think of trails, they just go across the land. They don't think about the ownership and access issues.

PAT O'LEARY: That's -- that's -- that's a big part of it, you know. And it's -- And you just got to get -- you got to get everybody working together on that. That's the big thing. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

PAT O'LEARY: So over the years, that was a big, big struggle, 'cause -- You know, Dan Seavey is a dear friend, but he -- he's kind of a bulldog, you know, just wants to charge ahead. And sometimes you can get into a little bit of trouble doing that. So --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Do you have an example of something that happened and that you had to resolve it?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, a little example is just out here at Bear Lake. At the end of the borough road, there's -- there was a dedicated public --

We were going to have a parking lot there, dedicated parking lot. And so the -- I don't know, I think it was five acres we asked for an easement for it. I think the DNR gave us a temporary easement.

And then what ended up happening -- and Dan was really pushing for that, because there's parking problems out at the end of the road there, you know.

And anyways, it didn't get funded. You know, kind of got lost until this Long Trail started going, you know, and that stuff.

And so they were going to go in there and -- and the Forest Service, the existing personnel, didn't realize that that was just a temporary easement. That was a five-year easement. Action didn't get taken in that five years from when the state granted us that easement. And now there's no easement. So now they have to go back to getting another piece in there.

And, you know, some people just want to go in there and just make the parking lot, you know. Get donations from the construction companies around here, and that stuff. And you just got to work through that. Stuff like that.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, well, I can see a volunteer organization like the Trail Blazers who are used to volunteers and getting donations and things like that, they have a different way of doing things than a federal agency. And they may not quite understand that or be patient enough for it.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, how -- how slow some things work to do it the way you have to do it, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

PAT O'LEARY: Versus just going out there. You know, a large part of the public really wants some parking out there. On this particular case, you know.

But until we get all of our ducks lined up, the government just can't go in there and cut trees that they don't own or if they build something, they don't own, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-mm.

PAT O'LEARY: That stuff. So it's working through the process.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And -- and some of it may be old school Alaskan, you know, the pioneer mentality where you just went and did whatever versus now we have governments and agencies and regulations and you can't just do that.

PAT O'LEARY: That's -- that's very -- very true, you know. And, you know, the land ownership -- you know, in the early '90s, that was Forest Service land. And maybe you could have talked to the District Ranger and went in there and built something, but it changed.

And, you know, you just got to take the other -- the other agencies, they have, you know, different ways of doing things, too. And they have their rules and different things like that. So --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, well, one of my -- PAT O'LEARY: -- you have another instance of it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, one of my questions was how you handled conflict and resolved it? And it sounds like your personality is being methodical and cooperative and work through it.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, you know, that's -- that's one of the things about -- See, attending the Trail Blazers meetings, you know, is I was able to -- I mean, I -- I took a lot of criticism, but that's just part of the job, you know. But I also explained all the time what we needed to do and that kind of thing.

That's one thing I don't see now. I go to the Trail Blazers meetings. And I'm not a part of the Forest Service anymore, and there isn't anybody showing up at those meetings.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, interesting. PAT O'LEARY: You know, and I think that's kind of a -- a --You know, they could be doing better at that.

They do -- they do have a -- a -- the trails person in Anchorage attends the Alliance meetings regularly that I've gone to. So that's good.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Yeah, that's Kevin Keeler, the BLM trail administrator? Is that who --

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, it's Kevin. Yeah. And then Brennan is the Forest Service person that attends it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, okay. Yeah, Kevin's the BLM guy.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, Will -- Will -- Will Brennan. Will Brennan. Yeah. (Will Brennan, Trails Supervisor, Glacier Ranger District, Chugach National Forest)

KAREN BREWSTER: So he's the -- the Forest Service trail person in Anchorage? PAT O'LEARY: Yes. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. And he handles all of Forest Service trails statewide or just for the Chugach?

PAT O'LEARY: Just for the Chugach. Yeah. And he's involved with the Long Trail process in a -- in a way for the Forest Service, too.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. So besides the Trail Blazers, was there any other way you interacted with the public? Were there any other conflicts? Was there public support for what was happening or --?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, the -- When we did -- when we did our NEPA, you know, we had -- we had -- had public meetings and -- and most probably the biggest thing was where we cut through, you know, where the trail cut or traveled through lands that were closed to motorized vehicles, such as snow machines and ATVs.

You know, and that -- that was always a contention. You know, the non-motorized versus the motorized. And we -- we worked at -- at finding different ways to allow motorized, especially winter motorized users to -- to travel along at least quite a few sections of the trail.

A lot of it wasn't constructed for them was one thing, but another thing is -- is, you know, we had alternate routes that they could use where the lands were closed to motorized use.

KAREN BREWSTER: But so what about for, uh, all-terrain vehicles for four-wheelers? I know that's a popular activity on Forest Service trails or Forest Service roads.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. Well, for the most part, it -- it -- it isn't on this forest. Many -- In the -- in the '70s, they did a -- a study and they closed an awful lot of the -- in fact, the majority of the trails to summer ATV use.

And that -- I know like in other forests, they've got a lot of ATV use on their trails and that stuff. But here it's primarily non-motorized summer and motorized winter, except for a few locations.

Like the -- the east side of Turnagain Pass is non-motorized, the west side is motorized. And like the Grayling Meridian Mile 12 trail system that cuts across there, that's part of the Iditarod. That's non-motorized, but they can use the -- the Lost Lake Primrose Trail for their motorized use. It kind of parallels, but it's -- it's up in the alpine more.

KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-mm. Well, yeah, I was wondering if you got pushback. When you were proposing development of the Iditarod Trail, if you got pushback from the ATV users saying, "Why are you putting in another hiking trail? Let's have motorized access."

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, well, we did get pushback. But, you know, so much of the terrain isn't -- isn't made for -- Down here, we're -- In a way, we're kind of lucky because most of the terrain is so rugged that it's not like --

But like up in the White Mountains, you know, where they have a lot of old mining stuff and everything is kind of opened up up there, except for a few areas that you can take, you know, motorized use and that stuff. So --

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. So my other -- I want to talk a little bit about the (Iditarod Historic) Trail Alliance. You mentioned working with them. And kind of how that has worked?

I know you've talked about the Trail Blazers and going to their meetings and what about involvement from the Iditarod Historic Trail Alliance?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, outside of having the Trail Alliance has been kind of good for lobbying for us. You know, as a government agency, we can't really lobby, but the Alliance can.

And it's just keeping abreast of what is happening on the rest of the trail and the historic aspects of the trail. I found that that's -- that's been really helpful. You know, to -- to know more about the whole trail and that.

KAREN BREWSTER: And did they provide public education material? We were talking about interpretive stuff and that the Forest Service maybe lacked that?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, they -- they -- Of course, it was working through Judy (Bittner), but Dan Seavey and -- and Lee Poleske put on training for the teachers.

And I'm not that familiar with that for the teachers to -- to teach or to have the Iditarod in the classroom and -- and learn about that.

And that's been pretty -- pretty successful, really, from what I understand. I don't know all about it. I should have sat in on one of those presentations sometime, but I didn't.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, well, that's the iTREC! (Iditarod Trail in Every Classroom) program. And I've done some interviews about sort of the -- the -- the history of that program and what they've done and some of the people who started it. So we do have some good information on that.

And yes, they did some of their workshops down in Seward. Did you ever -- PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, I was -- KAREN BREWSTER: -- participate in those or present to them?

PAT O'LEARY: No, I didn't. No, no. That -- Maybe I should have sat in on a couple of them just to see what it was like, but I was, you know, busy doing other things and it wasn't really part of what my job was.

KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-mm. So has the Alliance -- what kind of impacts have they had? You said the lobbying, but in terms of the southern portion and getting that. I mean, positive impact, negative impact having an outside organization involved?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, you know, they -- they did give us, you know, written support during the environmental analysis.

And -- and over the years have, you know, I think, tied in with -- with the Supervisor's Office when we had our -- our trails people up there. And just more -- more for support than anything else.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I'm just trying to get a sense of --

PAT O'LEARY: Written support. I was going to say written support, you know, on -- on the projects and pushing that along.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. Yeah, I was just trying to get a sense of their role in all of this trail stuff. And, you know, not all trails have a Friends of the Trail group like the Alliance. So kind of how that works?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, it's -- You know, I don't think they -- they -- the board there works on individual, you know, projects as such. But it's just for overall support. Going to Washington to push for trail funding for the various agencies and that kind of thing. That's -- that's where they come in real handy.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. Yeah, because it is a -- I mean, I guess the Appalachian Trail has it. And I guess some of these other long trails do have a group like that. But it seems unique. PAT O'LEARY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And now you are on the board of the Trail Alliance, correct?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, kind of temporarily, I got voted in. I don't know if it was a good thing or not, but I do --

I was going to say, I do enjoy over the years, you know, being associated with and meeting those people. Especially, I really enjoy meeting the people that are up north.

KAREN BREWSTER: You mean on the northern part of the trail, like Nome and --

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, like McGrath and Nome and some of the village people that have come in to the meetings over the years.

You know, I don't -- I have not gotten to many places in Alaska and get information from them, you know, from where they live.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, okay. Well, now that you're on the board, yeah, you sort of see -- see it from the other side maybe?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, yeah. And not wearing that Forest Service hat anymore. So I can criticize them.

But it does help, you know, because I still have contacts, like our trails person in Anchorage there. You know, I've -- I mean, he started as a young guy working on -- seasonally for us. And I, you know, recommended him for a permanent job. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm.

PAT O'LEARY: So he -- he's always very appreciative of seeing me there.

KAREN BREWSTER: That's good. Well, now that you're on the board or the Alliance, at least for the moment, do you have any specific things you'd like to see them do or a direction that they should be taking in the future?

PAT O'LEARY: I think that Judy has a real good handle on it. I'm feeling my way, you know, because I was just --

I kind of took over Lee Poleske's place on the board. And I, you know, just gotta -- gotta get my foot in the door, kind of there before I can see any -- I mean, I don't know what kind of changes would really be needed. You know, in any case.

KAREN BREWSTER: I don't know. That's why I sort of asked it is a generic question. PAT O'LEARY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Or if -- if you have some -- like, I want to make sure this gets done kind of thing? But it sounds like not.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, you know, I'm not -- I'm not that kind of person that --

I know how agencies work. And the big thing is -- is getting them involved with -- with groups, you know, in the different segments of the trail and that stuff.

You know, the BLM has -- has -- has also has easement issues, you know, and I've known Kevin Keeler a long time. So --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yes. What I was going to say that the Seward Trail Blazers, for sure, and the Alliance as well, but certainly the Trail Blazers, it's having that local connection and -- and buy-in that this is our trail, that that probably helps?

PAT O'LEARY: Oh, it sure does. You know, and -- You know, if it wasn't for the Trail Blazers, they did the fundraising to get the bike path through Seward, you know, and that has been such a favorable thing for this -- for this community. I don't think people realize that if it wasn't for them, it might still be just a gravel dirt place to -- you know, and that stuff.

And then they're trying to get with DOT (Department of Transportation) to -- to tie in a segment along Nash Road to the trailhead that leads out of Nash Road. And that's a couple miles. And of -- you know, it would have to be some -- somewhat of a bike path and that stuff.

And just, there, you know, there again, they're the ones that are lobbying both the state, the borough, and the feds in a way. You know, usually through the Alliance for the federal government. But the state and the borough, they keep pushing things along.

KAREN BREWSTER: It seems like the Seward group has remained so active and involved, whereas, you know, there were Trail Blazer groups in Knik, and I think there was one maybe in McGrath and in Nome, but it seems like they're not as currently active as Seward is. And I don't know why the difference.

PAT O'LEARY: Well, I think there's a couple of those people. And I don't know what'll happen after Dan (Seavey). Dan is -- is getting pretty close to 90, I think. You know, he's in his '80s anyways. And, you know, they've been -- they've been active since I think it was like 1982 or something like that. It was the early '80s anyways.

You know, and they're non-profit, you know, so then you can donate -- you know, they take donations and they ran different fundraisers and have been really, really active in this community and Moose Pass -- up through Moose Pass.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And I know Lee -- Lee Poleske was also one of those movers and shakers. PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Who would keep it alive.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. Yeah, he was -- Yeah, I really, really miss him. He was a special person as far as the history goes.

And, you know, when I needed to know a little bit about history, I usually went to him and if he didn't know if he'd find out.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, he -- he also ran the museum for quite a long time in Seward, didn't he?

PAT O'LEARY: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. For many years. And after he retired -- I mean, retired as a teacher, he received no pay for that. You know, and that. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. PAT O'LEARY: So that -- that was all gratis work. So just interested in that stuff.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, that's -- that's great. We need more people like that for sure.

I was going to ask if you have a -- a particularly favorite segment or segments of the trail that when you've been out there?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, I like -- I like the trail -- the trail segment between Ptarmigan Campground and it's actually Bot Lake. You'd come out down the Bot Lake Trail by Lower Trail Lake. And it goes -- there's a good-sized bridge over Falls Creek, which is pretty spectacular.

And it's just got a nice feel. It goes through a lot of hemlock. So it's got a little bit more open than the -- some of the thicker sections and that. So --

KAREN BREWSTER: So have you been on the whole --? I know I asked you this before, but I don't remember the answer. If you've been on the whole thing from Seward to Crow Pass or the parts that are there?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's a segment up from Turnagain Pass south that I haven't -- That I -- I went -- I -- I skied down kind of the route in the wintertime, but I really haven't been on the foot trail. And I'd like to do that -- that piece there sometime. That's one -- one piece that I haven't been.

I've been Turnagain Pass south on almost all the sections of trail that are made. You know, that are constructed now.

KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm. You haven't done that whole thing in one fell swoop?

PAT O'LEARY: No, no. It's been pieces where we were working or checking out or things like that, you know. So not too much.

I ended up with a couple of bad knees. So for a while there, I was somewhat limited on -- on how far I could hike and that stuff. But I've got two new knees now, and so I should be out there hiking more.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I was going to say, that's -- the -- for me as a hiker, I think the benefit of a job like yours or any of these trails jobs is you -- part of your job you have to go out and be on the trail. And check it out.

PAT O'LEARY: Yep, yep. It's -- Kept me pretty much in good physical shape, the job did over the years. And since then, you know, of course, those -- those knees started bothering me towards the end.

I think I spent too many -- too much time early on in a canoe kneeling and then riding a snowmachine for the job that they gave out on me.

And so it was a little bit more difficult, but I -- up until the end I was pretty active.

KAREN BREWSTER: Great. So looking back on your career there, are there any things you could think of that are, you know, successes or accomplishments you're especially proud of?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, I think in getting those segments of trail in, I'm pretty proud of that.

I think one of the -- the -- my biggest accomplishments, which is kind of a small one, but it is -- is we had lost the access to the Lost Lake Trail that was put -- there was a handshake agreement from an old-timer that had the land at Mile Seven of the -- or Mile Five of the highway here outside of Seward.

And the land -- Of course, a handshake agreement doesn't hold when the land is transferred to somebody else. And they did not want that trailhead in there. And for a couple of years we lost it.

And I was able to facilitate a three-way land swap and get a trailhead and have that trailhead constructed for the Lost Lake Trail, which is a very busy trail out of Seward here.

That was one of my -- You know, I think for a lot of things that it was -- it was a pretty difficult transfer of where the landowner down here bought a piece of land up by Crow Pass with the Crow Pass Mine. And Crow Pass Mine bought the piece of land down here.

And then we traded where their cabins were at Crow Pass, the piece of parcel up there, so that we could have the land down -- down here for a trailhead.

And just working between three different groups, the landowner down here, the people at Crow Pass, and the government, it was quite challenging, but it got through. And that's how this was --

But that was -- That wasn't real -- Well, in a way it was tied to, you know, an alternate route for the motorized -- winter motorized for the trail, you know, the Iditarod Trail. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm. Well, I was --

PAT O'LEARY: But that -- that was one of the -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I mean just -- PAT O'LEARY: -- things in that -- KAREN BREWSTER: Go ahead.

PAT O'LEARY: I was just going to say it was just a real complicated -- You know, and it took -- it took about five years, you know, and that stuff to get the new trail up there. And, well, the Russian River Anglers Trail, that was -- that was a big thing tieing that all in.

I just had a lot of -- I had a really good career. I ended up being here 22 years. And my wife actually moved out to New Mexico and then moved to Washington, D.C. So it was -- I stayed here with the boys and she worked her way -- climbed the ladder and that stuff. But, you know, it worked out for us.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, as you say that, you know, your example of that three-way land swap just shows how complicated it is and how you have to have negotiation, mediation, good people skills, patience, something. To get everybody to agree on these sorts of things.

PAT O'LEARY: That -- That's a big part of it. Yeah. Yeah, listening to the concerns. You know, the -- just -- You know, everybody has to have their say and you just got to work things through.

Just like with the easement issues and that kind of stuff, you got to -- you got to find out what the concerns are and try to figure out how to mitigate all of that stuff.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I would say it takes a particular personality to be able to do that. Not everybody would have the patience or the personality to do that.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. I think --I think I have fairly good people skills. That's one thing I -- I think I have, you know, so --

KAREN BREWSTER: And so your work with the Iditarod Trail, what has that meant to you personally? Has it had any special meaning to you?

PAT O'LEARY: Oh, yeah, I mean it's been special. The Trail Blazers, I've gotten to be good friends with them. I've gotten to know people across the state with the Alliance. You know, Judy Bittner.

I have to tell you a little story. But our archaeologist, when I first came up and we were working on the Russian River, he was an elderly gentleman. And I don't know if he had the best standing or not. He was a kind of a gruff character.

But anyways, he -- he had me fearing the SHPO (State Historic Preservation Office). Everything we did -- Of course, the Russian River was -- was a -- You know, there's a lot of Native influences on that land.

We had to be very careful. You know, we couldn't even -- for the campground, we couldn't even dig a post hole to mount the sign unless we had an archaeologist out there. And anyways, he put the fear in God of me of the -- of the SHPO.

And then I met Judy at one of the meetings and I thought, boy, she is just one of the nicest people. And yeah, you know, he just -- I don't know if it was just -- I'll never forget that that he was -- he was what, you know, you gotta -- You gotta do this, gotta do that, or SHPO'll be after us for all this stuff and that.

But she was very easy to work with and I appreciated all the years working with her on different projects. And her team, you know. That's one thing, Lesli Schick was a person that worked a lot on the Iditarod.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. She's on my list to interview to get her perspective.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. Yeah, she -- she was a good hand out there. You know, early on in her career, she worked for the -- she was an archaeologist with the Forest Service and then jumped over to the state.

So she understood a lot of the Forest Service stuff and I had worked with her then and worked with her through the state stuff also.

KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm. So did you -- You mentioned the archaeologist and the Russian River and you had to have clearance for everything. I know you mentioned before the NEPA process, you had to go through for the Iditarod sections. Did you have archaeology work that had to be done?

PAT O'LEARY: Oh, yeah. Yeah. We had a team of archaeologists, you know, an archaeologist on the district and then archaeologists -- techs out there surveying all the work.

You know, getting out there before time to see if there was any historic or, you know, stuff out there that needed to be checked and -- and whether there's mitigation. Which -- which there wasn't much, you know. But there's a few things that came up.

KAREN BREWSTER: I was going to say, what did they -- did they find any things?

PAT O'LEARY: Not to my knowledge, but sometimes they didn't -- you know, some of that archaeology stuff, that historic stuff, isn't always -- What do you want to call it? Free information -- Information that is let out. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

PAT O'LEARY: And that stuff that they did. A lot of it was mining stuff that could be mitigated. You know, trash piles that they might, you know, either go around or pick through or whatever and that stuff. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, you mentioned --

PAT O'LEARY: So yeah, they docu -- KAREN BREWSTER: Go ahead.

PAT O'LEARY: Well, I was going to say they documented, you know, anything that they -- they happened to find. And we had to either do something about them, you know, or avoid them.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Well, you mentioned the Russian River and the evidence of Native use of that area and it made me think about if along the Iditarod sections if there was any evidence of that?

PAT O'LEARY: You know, not too much because a lot of this was all new re-route. You know, through -- through the forested areas.

Whereas, you know, mainly I think the Johnson Pass area and maybe some stuff in Turnagain, where it came close to the existing routes that, you know, they might have come across some -- some artifacts or maybe not artifacts, but -- what do I want to say, uh, something, you know, its -- some indication on the land that -- that -- that work had been done there.

You know, the Johnson Pass Trail, a part of that -- a big part of that was the old Hope Military Road. So it came up from Hope and came out to the creek, to Johnson Creek there. And then from there, it took the railroad in. So -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. PAT O'LEARY: -- might be --

KAREN BREWSTER: The -- the railroad and the highway may have already wiped out all the older evidence that -- PAT O'LEARY: A lot -- a lot of.

KAREN BREWSTER: That those were the main routes that the Native people would have used prior to the road -- PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- and the railroad?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. I'm sure of that. Between that and the road.

KAREN BREWSTER: So we just talked about your accomplishments. What might you say were some of your most challenging or most frustrating things you had to deal with?

PAT O'LEARY: Well -- well, you know, of course, the easements were -- were always kind of frustrating. Working through those were always a big challenge.

And maybe the other thing was just the changing in the staff. You know, the district ranger would be transferred in and out every few years, it seemed like. So then you'd have to bring them up on -- on par and get one running. And by that time, then another one -- you know, they would move out.

That's -- that's -- that's the way the federal government, you know, works. They move around a lot. And I -- and I had moved. Well, I worked ten years on the Superior (National Forest) and then I only worked three years on the Targhee (National Forest) before moving up here.

But we ended up liking Seward and it was a good place for our kids to be raised. And I think I had a real good job. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

PAT O'LEARY: You know, the job I ended up with.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, I can see that with each new district ranger or supervisor or whatever, you'd have to sort of start re-educating and start over again about your projects and why they were important, and --

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. You know, that's -- that was always -- You know, and then, you know, you might get one that you didn't work so well with. And -- and doing more battle.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, but then that's good that they move on in a few years, right? I mean you get somebody who's easier to work with. PAT O'LEARY: (laughing) Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So are there things that looking back you wish either you could have done differently or that could have been handled differently?

PAT O'LEARY: Oh, yeah. I don't, you know, really have too many complaints that way looking back 'cause I think it was pretty -- Yeah, I -- I feel I was pretty, pretty well fulfilled with this job. You know, I had -- I don't think I would have wanted to climb the ladder anymore. You know, and I mean, I was -- I could pretty much do what I wanted to, especially after I had a few years under my belt, you know.

And so I don't have too many complaints about things I maybe should have tried to do or got done with. Maybe if I thought a little deeper on it, but I was pretty, you know, embedded here and knew -- knew what needed to be done and that stuff.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it's not like, "Oh shoot, we didn't get that done. I wish we could have done that."

Or if I had, you know, maybe with one of the easements? You mentioned the parking lot, was a good one that if that had been done, it would not have become an issue.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, I mean, you know, you can look at that, but some of that stuff wasn't -- was out of my hands, you know, whether we didn't have the money for it or whether --

You know, and then when the five years came up, you know, that was -- that was the way the state worked, you know, and that stuff. So then you had to just start over again. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

PAT O'LEARY: It can be frustrating at times, but, you know, after working so many years with the government, there's a lot of frustrating things.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So anything you'd like to see happen now in the future, now that you're not there anymore that --?

You mentioned that the interpretation, that the Forest Service could maybe do better with that. But, anything else that you'd like to see done on the trail?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, and I think that they -- You know, the Forest Service moved their office out of town here to the work center. And I think that has lost a lot of contact with -- with Seward as such. You know, they have more contact with Moose Pass, Cooper Landing, and Hope. With those communities.

And I -- and I just feel that you don't see a Forest Service rig in town anymore. Yeah, you know, you -- the --

I used to work a lot on Sunday mornings in the office just to kind of catch up, you know, and the ranger would almost always stop in after church.

And he always was -- was, you know, someone that usually, you know, after -- the after-church meeting would bring up something to him. And then, you know, then he'd stop in the office, usually, if he saw that I was working and -- and -- and clue me in on what -- which -- You know, he -- whoever it was talked to him about, you know, this issue or this thing that they would like to see done. You know, this project and that kind of stuff. And it was always one of those things.

Or I might be sitting in the office there. And there was a -- several old-timers would see me in the office and they'd swing in and tell me about this goat hunting trail or this -- You know, what happened historically out with some of the floods or, you know, different -- different things that -- that I didn't know about, you know, and that. And I think the Forest Service has kind of lost.

Well, and then we had -- we had an interpreter that worked with the -- in the Park Service office so that they would get information out about the (Chugach) Forest. 'Cause so many people would stop at the Park Service down at the harbor. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

PAT O'LEARY: And that was, I think, a real good thing. You know, so kind of lost contact with --

You know, you have to drive out to Mile 23 to go see anybody in the Forest Service, you know, and they've kind of isolated themselves out there.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Certainly from the visiting public, as well. PAT O'LEARY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: If -- If there's a visitor center where there's a Park Service person and having a Forest Service person makes sense.

PAT O'LEARY: That was, I think, a real good program that they had in the early '90s there. So --

KAREN BREWSTER: And they don't -- the Forest Service doesn't have anybody stationed out at the Exit Glacier Visitor Center with the Park Service, do they?

PAT O'LEARY: No. No. And the office out there really isn't advantageous. You're coming by, there's a small -- you know, there's a sign there, but -- I mean, they do get a few visitors, but not that many out there. So --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I don't -- yeah, I don't -- PAT O'LEARY: You have to ask the --

KAREN BREWSTER: You know, for the Chugach Forest anyway, my limited experience, I don't think of them much as a interpretive public education focused organization. Compared to like the Park Service.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, you know, they don't get the word out that much. I think, you know, they are trying to work at -- between BLM and the Trail Alliance they're trying to work at securing a site out at the -- the -- the visitor center out at Portage (Glacier). KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

PAT O'LEARY: And that would be a good thing, you know, if the Alliance could work out there as a -- and have an office out there.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, that's -- that's a good idea. PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Because, as you say -- PAT O'LEARY: I'd like to see that happen. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Most people --

PAT O'LEARY: I was going to say that the glacier has melted back far enough that that is not being seen as a glacier site anymore. You know, you got to actually take the boat out to the glacier, you know.

And so they got that visitor center. And that would be a great place to have at least something on the trail. You know, a good display.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, yeah. That would be nice. PAT O'LEARY: They do have a little -- KAREN BREWSTER: A display, yeah.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. They do have a little display down at the museum downtown here. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm. PAT O'LEARY: Which is nice.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I was thinking the Portage -- I remember when I moved to Alaska (in 1988), and there's this beautiful visitor center with all the windows and you looked out on the glacier and it was fantastic. Yeah, now it's a building with a view of a lake.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a -- so hopefully that'll work out. You know, they're trying to work that segment thing out.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, so that's sort of something you'd like to see done in the future. That's -- answers that question.

Any other things you'd like to still see done trail-wise? Getting those easements?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, they -- They -- Well, when they did the re-route for the Sterling Highway out of Cooper Landing, they ate up a piece of the Resurrection Pass National Recreation Trail. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

PAT O'LEARY: And in doing that, the agreement was that they're going to put a -- a walkway across the Snow River bridges.

Now, so that was the agreement with DOT. You know, so we -- we travel the Seward Highway a lot, and -- and they did a big construction along the lake (Kenai Lake). KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

PAT O'LEARY: And what did they do? They -- they took and did a major repair on the Snow River Bridge. But it doesn't look like they're putting a walkway. They did a repair, not a replacement. And so, I don't know when that will get done.

But that's a pretty important segment. Little piece that needs -- that needs to be done there. Get across, you know, Snow River, so you can tie in the trail on the east -- uh, the west side of the highway up through -- with the trail on the east side of the highway. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm.

PAT O'LEARY: At -- at Snow River. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

PAT O'LEARY: So, I'm waiting to see, you know, if DOT comes through.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, now that you don't work for -- PAT O'LEARY: Because that was -- that was -- KAREN BREWSTER: Now you can lobby them. PAT O'LEARY: I was going to say, that was a trade-off. Huh? Pardon me?

KAREN BREWSTER: Now you can lobby them. You don't work for the government anymore.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I guess I can. I should get -- get on their case.

KAREN BREWSTER: There was something else I was just going to ask about. Oh yeah, so you retired in 2012, you said, right? PAT O'LEARY: Yes.

KAREN BREWSTER: So somebody has taken over your position? PAT O'LEARY: Kind of, I guess. I'll put it that way.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I -- I -- What I'm getting at is since you left -- I mean, you were so involved with the trail and the contracts and getting those sections done.

Since you left, has there been anybody else who's taken over that and is responsible for the Iditarod Trail in the southern portion through the Chugach?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, they -- they don't have a kind of a dedicated person for that. They've got a person that -- that has multiple duties for the different trails. They haven't had -- Oh, I take that back.

They have had some bridge contracts put out, since -- since I left. The bridge over Falls Creek on a segment -- segment between Ptarmigan and Bot Lake. That was -- that was a contract that was done.

There was a contract done up on the Glacier Ranger District also. And I hear that they're going to have -- be putting a bridge over Victor Creek, which is a real steep canyon. It's a narrow -- narrow bridge, but it's a very steep canyon. And I hear that that's going to be coming within a year or so.

So, there is some work and -- and people working on segments of it. But they haven't had any big trail contracts that I'm aware of out in a while.

KAREN BREWSTER: So do you feel like --

PAT O'LEARY: You know, they -- they did work a lot -- They did, I -- They did work a lot with DOT to get that bike path around Turnagain Arm.

And that you can't call the Iditarod because DOT doesn't want it called the Iditarod, even though it's -- all -- all ties -- will tie in the, you know, the segment all the way to Crow Pass. It's something to do with, you know, it could restrict them in the future.

KAREN BREWSTER: It seems odd.

PAT O'LEARY: So. Yeah, and I wasn't involved with it. So I don't know what it's all -- But they had to fight pretty hard.

The Forest had to fight pretty hard to get that in there. So I appreciate the people that worked on that.

That's -- looks like it's going to be a -- you know, they took the -- the old bridge over Placer (River) and they left that in for a travelway and then they built the new bridge around it. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. PAT O'LEARY: It -- It -- It looks really nice.

KAREN BREWSTER: Good. Yeah, I was wondering, yeah, if you feel like how what you started has been continued and carried on with the Forest Service?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, maybe not to the extent, because we haven't had a big flush of money. You know, that's one thing I can say, you know, for my whole career, it seemed like we got a fair amount of money to do our projects.

And the Iditarod was one big one. Russian River was another. But we got other trails monies, and recreation monies, also. And they haven't been that flush in recent years to accomplish as much as what I think we did.

KAREN BREWSTER: And why do you think that is?

PAT O'LEARY: Oh, you know, administration. There was change in administration. There's, you know, funding for the government wasn't as -- as -- as it had been. And maybe -- maybe -- I mean, I can't really speak of whether it was the upper level.

Well, we were also getting -- some of the other parts of the region were pushing for a little additional money, you know, like the -- the -- down at Ketchikan and Thorne Bay and those areas there, they started counting their logging roads as trails.

So they were getting a bigger part of the trails money. We're having to compete with -- within, you know, the organization -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. PAT O'LEARY: -- to -- to get it. So --

KAREN BREWSTER: And -- and, as you say, it depends on who the people are in some of those positions and what their interests and priorities.

And if you have somebody pushing for the Iditarod versus somebody pushing for those logging roads within the -- PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, yeah. I mean it was -- KAREN BREWSTER: -- allocation of the region. That makes sense.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, allocation of funds across the region was a --

I think I hit it at the right time, because we were -- You know, we would do these write-ups for proposals. And we had a lot of them in and -- and we got the majority of the funds.

And we had support in the Supervisor's Office and on the district here to do that. Where I don't think they have that support now just because they're lacking personnel and that stuff.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And I think from talking to Lee (Poleske) and Dan (Seavey), the fact that they had found an ally in you, that you were listening to them and were enthusiastic to -- to push for things within the Forest Service, that helped move things along, as well.

PAT O'LEARY: Well, they -- they kept my feet in the fire. Let's put it that way, you know. No.

I would -- I would -- I would bring it up as -- whenever I could on what the plan called for and what we should be doing and that stuff.

And people listened to me, you know, and that stuff so that we did get adequate funding and that. And I think just now they're struggling a little bit on the district and in the Supervisor's Office here. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. PAT O'LEARY: So.

KAREN BREWSTER: Because I would think that the Trail Blazers was there for a long time and wanted this work done, but they didn't have somebody in the Forest Service who was listening or who cared.

Or, as you said, the Forest Service hadn't done anything related to the trail. The plan came out in what 1980, '81. PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so, it's the people involved and that, yes, they put -- they may have put the other people's feet to the fire and they didn't do anything and -- and you made stuff happen.

So I -- I do know that your name came up with them as something they were very pleased to have worked with you and had you as an ally.

PAT O'LEARY: Well, and I -- I really enjoyed working with them over the years, you know. At first I thought, well, what's this little honkedy group doing down here? You know. But I -- but I kept on it.

And it was, you know, the -- the district ranger at the time, he says, "You need to go to these meetings and get involved. Get them involved with things." And that stuff.

He was here for a number of years and then he moved -- he moved on and then we jumped back and forth with fillers, I'll say. You know, that were just here to kind of pad their resumes, I think.

KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm. Well, it's about building community. And as you say, now that the Forest Service has moved farther out of town, I can see that it's harder to build that community.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, that's -- that's harder. It's harder to --

You know, I personally know the district ranger and I know that she's doing as good a job as she can, but she still doesn't get, you know, THIS community support.

And it took me a while, you know, in the job to figure out how this community here in Seward used the Forest too. You know, most of the summer they're out fishing, whether they're charter fishing or commercial fishing or that stuff, but they're big winter users and that -- that was always very important.

There's -- Whereas the -- Well, like Cooper Landing, they're very, very tied with the Forest being around them. And especially now with all the beetle (spruce bark beetle) kill that they have around there and fire is a big thing. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. PAT O'LEARY: So. KAREN BREWSTER: Definitely. Well --

PAT O'LEARY: Fire has gotten to be a big thing in the Forest Service. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. PAT O'LEARY: In general.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I can see where you're saying that through time issues change. You know, it's now the beetle kill has brought that and risk of fire to the forefront.

And -- and the fishing uses are changing. And I can see from a management side, it's always changing.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. And it's -- you know, that -- that's a big priority there. You know, I'm sure that Ruth the Ranger is spending a lot of time in those communities where surrounded by beetle kill and trying to work on that stuff.

The last thing we need to have is, you know, something come through as far as a big fire goes and taking out some of that.

KAREN BREWSTER: We deal with that up here. So, I wouldn't recommend it. PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, this has been great, Pat. I really appreciate your time and thinking about these things from so long ago.

Was there any other stories you wanted to tell or things you wanted to share that we haven't talked about?

PAT O'LEARY: Right now, I can't think of anything. I wish I had like more dates on things and that stuff.

But like I said, I -- Not too long ago, I threw away all my work calendars. So it had every -- all my whole history of 22 years here, and the other years on the Forest, you know, but --

Just I'll continue working with the groups, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Good.

PAT O'LEARY: And that. And as long as I'm here. We are eventually going to move back to Minnesota. But that's -- that's in the future. So --

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I was going to say is some of your records and files probably are still in the Forest Service offices, maybe?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, that's what worries me a little bit. When they -- when they pulled the office out of here, I think a lot of stuff got thrown out. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

PAT O'LEARY: You know, like that plan. I can still see it, you know. And it was -- it was kind of had a lot of ragged ears on it and that, but I hope that they still have it up there at the office. I should -- I should go snooping around, I guess, and see.

But that's, you know, what I referred to anyways, and it helped me out in, you know, learning more about the -- the -- you know, this national historic trail.

KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm. Yeah, I've wondered whether it's time to do a new plan?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, that would -- that would help. You know, Judy is trying to get a -- a -- a paid person on the Alliance rolls. And I hope she does that, 'cause that -- that might be a good point to start looking at the plan. And maybe one of the next meetings I'll bring that up. So.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, because I mean, 1980, '81, and if everybody's still using that plan now, it's -- it's a little bit old.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, yeah, that would be something to update it. So that would be a -- It would be a big project, but it would be a good -- good project.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, a lot of work for sure. PAT O'LEARY: So.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay, well I'm going to turn off the recording.