KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it may be your Internet. As you said, this morning was not behaving. So, we'll just -- PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- see how far we get and see what happens. I wish I could be there in person, but I can't at the moment. So -- PAT O'LEARY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So, why don't we just jump into this. I'll start with my little introduction, which is this is Karen Brewster. Today is July 2nd, 2024, and I'm interviewing Pat O'Leary who is in Seward and I am in Fairbanks, Alaska. And we're doing this via Zoom.

And it's for the Iditarod National Historic Trail Project Jukebox. So Pat, thank you for dealing with the technology with me today. PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, well, we'll see how it goes.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yes. So why don't we just get started. You tell me a little bit about your background and where you're from and your education.

PAT O'LEARY: Well, I -- I've worked for the U.S. Forest Service for about 35 years. I -- I grew up in a small town in north central Wisconsin and went to a -- and took a two-year natural resource program course thinking I'd get back to college. And during those two years -- between the two years in the early '70s I -- I took a job with the U.S. Forest Service on the Superior National Forest in northern Minnesota and kinda fell in love with it and went back.

I actually got a job with the Forest Service in Idaho fighting forest fires for a couple of years. And then moved back to Minnesota and got hired on full-time as a forestry technician and worked there 10 years.

Moved out to Idaho for a couple of years, and then moved to Seward on the -- and work on the Seward Ranger District in -- on the Chugach National Forest since 1990.

So that's my -- and -- and as the -- on the Seward Ranger District my job was a recreation planner, and I was in charge of trails and dispersed recreation and some of the developed recreation until we concessioned it out.

So that's -- that was my involvement, got going with the -- with trails. And my district ranger told me I should attend a Seward Iditarod Trail Blazers meeting way back when. So I started attending those, got to know the group down here.

Also pulled out the comprehensive management plan for the Iditarod National Historic Trail and started looking through it to get myself familiar with it. And between that and Dan Seavey kind of getting on our case I -- I started pushing it as we were coming out with different things to -- different projects to work on through the years. So that is pretty much how I got involved with it, anyways.

KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-mm. So at that point in 1990, was there any recognition that the southern portion of the Iditarod Trail even existed and needed to be recognized?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, it -- it -- there -- when the -- they did the comprehensive management plan they -- they kind of had a blue line through the Kenai Peninsula where it should go as a -- You know, they understood that it was pretty much taken up by the railroad and the -- and the highway. What was there. And the people used the railroad pretty much as the initial part of the trail.

So the comprehensive management plan, I don't know how exactly it's stated but it's stated to build an alternative recreational route adjacent to the -- to the railroad or to the existing -- the old -- the historic trail, I should say. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-mm.

PAT O'LEARY: So that -- That had not been really looked at for a number of years. The district ranger we had was a guy in charge down here, knew some things about it, but it wasn't high on his priority list and that stuff.

But after attending the meetings for a few years, you know, with the Trail Blazers kind of pushing for some action, and I started bringing it up in our future planning and that stuff. Not much else was going on at that time, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so when you brought it up in those -- in those planning meetings what was the response within the Forest Service?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, you know, I -- I brought the management plan and it said that the -- that the Forest Service should be responsible for the -- for the construction and maintenance and that of the southern portion through the Kenai Peninsula to Crow Pass. And -- and I kept bringing it up.

And so we started looking at different things. One of the things we found out. In the '90s, quite a few are -- there was a lot of land selection down here by the state, and the Forest Service wasn't really getting into asking for easements for the trail.

And so, I kept bringing that up as these land selections would come through. Retaining sections that -- that were selected by the state, easements through them. And -- and some of 'em we were able to get through and some of 'em we weren't able to.

KAREN BREWSTER: Do you have examples of which ones you got and which ones you didn't and why?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, yeah, we had to -- We had a section around Bear Lake that was -- part of it was retained by an old road we kept -- the Forest Service kept through. But part of it was not. And so, those were some sections that needed to be worked on.

And then -- then up from Mile 12 down to the -- connecting to the Grayling Lake Trail, which was a -- a small trail that we had retained an easement on.

KAREN BREWSTER: The what lake trail? PAT O'LEARY: What's that? KAREN BREWSTER: What was the name -- the what lake? PAT O'LEARY: Grayling. Grayling and Meridian Lake. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

PAT O'LEARY: And so, that was a section that we'd had to work on getting an easement for. They're -- they're still having some issues with the easements and that stuff which we can talk about at some time.

But that -- that's been one of the hardest things that we've had to deal with was easements with -- through the DNR (State Department of Natural Resources), 'cause it does put a encumbrance on, you know, the lands that -- that have been selected by DNR and in that. And so, it's -- it's -- it's one of those issues, I guess, that's -- KAREN BREWSTER: Well -- PAT O'LEARY: -- that's still being worked in.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And, well, DNR may have selected lands for reasons other than recreation, such as, let's say, mining or development. And so a trail easement might not be something they want.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, yeah. That's -- that's -- that's what we have to work through with 'em.

And then, also, I mean, we're getting a little bit off here, but they did give us easements for some of it. And the ones that we were able to get under contract, those, to my knowledge, have gone through because we had to work on them.

But there's -- there's some parcels that were not worked on. You know, funding whatever the reasons were. And those were like -- you had, like I think it was like a five-year temporary easement to do something with and then it was recorded.

And if you didn't get that, those easements on a ways, now the Forest Service is having to go back and ask for those sections to be -- get new easements on.

KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. That's a pain. PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. Yes, it is. KAREN BREWSTER: All that hard work and then have to go do it again. Yeah, as I said, we are getting a little -- PAT O'LEARY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: A little off track, but that's okay. So for the southern portion when you started and kind of getting that recognized, as you said the plan -- the management plan just kind of had a generic line on the map. So how did you figure out or how did somebody - it maybe wasn't you - where the trail should go? (Zoom disconnection) I think I've lost you. You froze up.

Okay, so what I was asking you was about the locating and marking of the trail, because you said the comprehensive plan just kind of had a guess of a line. So, do you know how that all happened or was that before your involvement?

PAT O'LEARY: No, I was -- It pretty much -- You know, we -- we -- Of course, we had to do NEPA on it, you know, which is the National Environmental Protection Act. You know, so we did an EIS (Environmental Impact Statement).

And we looked at how we could connect existing trails with, you know, what would be the easiest way to do that, you know, and what would it -- what effects it would have.

And then, you know, went out to the public and did a lot of scoping and -- and came up with, you know, pretty much a -- and a paper map of what we would do and, you know, and then after that we had a technician and a surveyor or an engineer -- a trails engineer start looking at the different sections and flagging those sections and that kind of stuff, so that we could put together contracts or do it with force account work to tie them in after the decision was made to follow through with, you know, the recommendations of the -- of NEPA and our -- our scoping and that stuff. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. Yeah, it's -- PAT O'LEARY: So, uh --

KAREN BREWSTER: I never thought you'd have to do a NEPA review for a trail corridor, but I guess so.

PAT O'LEARY: Oh yeah, you know, it takes -- And we had to get archaeologists out there to -- to walk the whole route before we did construction. And that was -- You know, took up a lot of -- Well, it -- it was a lot of work, let's put it that way.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, a lot of dedication on your part to keep pushing for it, perhaps?

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah, you know, every time -- And once we got some money dedicated for it then -- then it was pretty easy to get follow through on it and that stuff.

KAREN BREWSTER: So how did you get the money?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, you know, I can't remember exactly. I think it was -- We started the process around 1999. Maybe a little earlier?

And we had a -- at that time the borough had a trails coordinator and we had a -- a representative from the state, and I cannot remember his name, who was involved. Who liked to do a lot of trail -- a lot of hiking and that stuff.

And, you know, I met with them and that stuff and -- and the -- the borough trails coordinator had helped put together a grant that they ran through Senator Stevens. And he got almost a million dollars in -- in some money -- some federal money to -- to go -- for this project.

KAREN BREWSTER: And was that money that was allocated to the Forest Service?

PAT O'LEARY: It was initially allocated to the state, you know, which -- which was most probably a good thing. I didn't like it at the time, because I had to be accountable for the state -- to the state. But the state DNR and -- but it was -- By doing that, then it wasn't yearly money.

Like the federal -- the feds would have got a bunch of money yearly, you know, and then they would have had to spend it all like in one year or lose it. Where this carried over for a number of years while we prepped for the trail.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. And so what was that money specifically used for?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, we could use it for, you know, any of the archaeological surveys. Also the -- my trails layout person and the engineer to put together contracts where we would -- We decided to do contracts. And also, if we were using a forest account crew, you know, then I had to keep track of --

Contract was relatively simple, you know, 'cause I just kept track of the -- the engineer's time and -- and then the contract cost and -- and that stuff.

Forest account crew, I had to keep track of everybody's time and where we spent the money and, you know, how we spent it and things like that. And report it, I think, twice a year to the -- to the state.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so what were the contracts for? They were for surveying or building the trail, or what?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, for building the trail, yes. We had several contracts. And, of course, we took some of the ones that -- that we were mainly going to try to tie in to. Some of the more difficult ones we kind of passed the buck on, you know.

But -- and then like Johnson Pass Trail I had -- I had the forest account crew up on that trail just rehabbing a whole bunch of sections of it, which is part -- the Johnson Pass was part of the Iditarod. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. PAT O'LEARY: Actually, the original Iditarod Trail. It was the old military road up to Hope and then on --

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, yeah, so that -- Your Johnson Pass example is interesting that the Iditarod money helped improve some other existing trails because they happened to overlap.

PAT O'LEARY: Yeah. Yeah, that we -- we rehabbed, uh -- When we tied in with, uh, from Mile 12 Hill to, um, the Grayling Meridian Trail and took it on to the Primrose Trail, we rehabbed the -- the existing trails for accesses in -- at the -- the Grayling Trailhead.

KAREN BREWSTER: And did you personally get to go out on the trail?

PAT O'LEARY: Oh, yes. I was -- I was an inspector on the contracts, so I would check to make sure that the -- the contractor was -- was meeting the requirements and that stuff. Working with the -- with the engineer.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did you get to hike the whole thing from Seward to Crow Pass?

PAT O'LEARY: I pretty much -- pretty much hiked the whole sections. We didn't get a trail built on the east side of -- of Lower Trail on Upper Trail Lake. And I understand now what they want to do, you know, trail -- I had -- I had it brushed. It was -- it was -- it was flagged and I wanted to keep it open so I had a contractor brush it, but we never built anything on it. And that's -- that I think is one section that they're working on trying to retain -- or regain the easement on.

But the thought now -- Trail Creek coming into Trail -- Upper Trail Lake has a wide railroad expand and it would have been a very wide expensive trail bridge to -- to try to get across. We had a good place across what is going to be very wide and like a suspension bridge or something.

And that, of course, now what they want to do, they want to bring it through Moose Pass and use the railroad bridge at Moose Pass and build a -- an adjacent pedestrian walkway on it. And this is, you know, kind of the future from what I understand. Coming through Moose Pass and then doing a bike path from Moose Pass to -- to Johnson Pass Trailhead along the highway and then -- then on up.

So that's -- that's one piece that's -- that's, you know, they're -- they're tying that in with the Long Trail is what I understand. The Alaska Long Trail.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, what I was wondering about, you know, when the old trail is now under the railroad or under the highway, how do you find a reroute?

PAT O'LEARY: Well, that's what -- that -- that's -- that's the whole thing. You gotta -- you got -- Any type of a --a -- you know, trail recon, you gotta go over the country a number of times to find -- to find the best routes.

And, you know, we were able to identify a few places like at Snow River, that bridge, the existing bridge, was reconstructed sometime I think in the -- It was -- it maybe after the earthquake (1964 Alaskan earthquake, also known as the Great Alaskan earthquake) or maybe before. I can't remember as some of the old timers telling me about it.

But there was -- there -- there is a -- an old roadbed adjacent to that and so what we plan on doing is having the trail follow that old roadbed and then, at some time, the highway department is supposed to redo the bridge and put a pedestrian walkway on.

(Interview gets cut off by Zoom disconnection from poor Internet connection in Seward, Alaska. Decided to restart interview on the following day when Internet, hopefully, will be more reliable.)