KAREN BREWSTER: This is Karen Brewster and today is June 7th, 2024. And I am here with Terry O'Sullivan and he is in Scottsdale, Arizona. And I am in Fairbanks, Alaska and we're doing this interview by Zoom. And it's an interview for the Iditarod National Historic Trail Project Jukebox.

So thank you Terry for making this happen this morning. I know the technology is a little extra complicated this way. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: But we -- we do the best we can. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: So I'm excited to -- I'm glad we can add it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yes. Well, as you -- you've -- You know, we've gone back and forth with the questions and what we're going to talk about today. So why don't we just get started with a little bit of background about yourself before we get into your role with the Iditarod Trail.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Sure. Well, I was born in 1948 in a little place called Santa Clara Valley. A very orchard type of town and stuff. Very quiet. And they used to call it Valley of the Heart's Delight, because of the -- all the fruit orchards.

But now -- and I was raised in Cupertino, but now they call it Silicon Valley. It's the home of Apple Computers and it's a whole different from where I grew up. But that's -- that's where I started.

I went to Humboldt State College, graduated in 1970, natural resource management. And from there, I started -- while I was going to college, I started working for the Forest Service in Oregon as a -- as a firefighter. And I lived in a little guard station on the Winema National Forest and worked that for three seasons. And I was headquarters firemen at their ranger district.

And then went -- from there, I transferred in -- let's see 19 -- I think, the year 1973. So, I started '69 as a firefighter. In 1973, I transferred up to the Olympic National Forest where I was a recreation assistant on the Bridgeport (unclear?) Ranger District. And taking care of campgrounds, trails, and -- and that sort of thing there.

In -- must have been 1976, I took a trip up to Alaska to visit a friend who was working for the BLM in -- in Fairbanks. And while I was there, I noticed a job announcement for an outdoor recreation planner up in Fairbanks.

So -- or I heard that was coming up. And so when the job opened, I went ahead and put in for it and I was selected for that -- for that position.

So I transferred agencies in May of 1977, and started to work on the Yukon Resource Area. And it was pretty much that -- When I started, that was pretty much about a third of the whole state of Alaska, but primarily the pipeline (Trans-Alaska Pipeline) corridor. So it was the -- the big issue there.

I arrived in -- in Alaska about the time the oil hit Valdez. So it was kind of a -- there was still a -- fairly still a bit of a wild town then. And there -- but we worked at -- worked at really -- We really enjoyed working there.

While -- while there, about 1979, so it was only a few years. Let's see what '77, about three years later. The -- Of course, the project team --

Well, there was the designation of the National Trail in '78. So right after I -- right after I got there, but in 1979 they -- they -- they had to -- they started up a project team.

And I had put in for that job and I was able to transfer from Fairbanks down to Anchorage to start working on the project team. So that's kind of a quick, how I -- how I got there, how I got to Alaska. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: I spent 13 years there after that.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. So -- so when you started with the Iditarod Trail project team, and then you moved into other parts of working on the trail and the trail administrator? And that was for a total of 13 years?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Well, and, uh, no, with the -- I worked -- I think the project team, we had about two, two and a half years to -- from when -- from about '79 to the end of -- by September of '81 to -- that be -- We were funded for the project team. And that's when we got the -- Well, it turned out to be all the draft documents done by that time.

And then in '82, I -- we -- I -- I was sort of the last man standing there. So I -- I assumed the trail administrator role. And then we -- was it we were able to work with the state.

And, of course, the whole premise by -- by that time was cooperative management. So we were working closely with Alaska State Parks. So under an inner-governmental personnel act assignment, I actually grabbed my files and everything and I set up office in Alaska State Parks and worked -- and worked with them for, I think, two -- another two years. And until funding on both sides kind of ran out to support that effort.

But it was -- it was really interesting working in the State Park environment. Because it was -- we -- we called it the Joint State Federal Trails Office.

And not only Iditarod, but worked on a lot of the state trail inventories and projects and issues and -- and that sort of thing. And it was a really good group of people to work with. I worked primarily with a gentleman called Ron Crenshaw. And he was -- he was a good partner there. He helped me move my file cabinet over. I remember that day in the back of the pickup. I think, I -- I think the ink wasn't dry on the -- You know, I mean, the -- 'cause I -- 'cause I knew at --

Well, you know, I think the -- the managers knew there if -- if I was back in just BLM, that would be kind of BLM and other duties assigned. But I was able to concentrate just on trails for that amount of time.

When -- Again, at the end of that process, another couple of years, funding kinda dried up, and then it was back -- back to the Anchorage District Office across town and I was assigned to the McGrath Resource Area. And that was the resource area that managed the majority of the Iditarod Trail that was on BLM land. So that was the logical place for me to land.

A few years later, I put in for the Anchorage District Office Rec Planner. So one -- one step up and Iditarod followed me there. But all that time, I was considered the -- the -- the go-to Trail Manager, 'cause I knew more about -- As far as from the federal BLM standpoint, I knew more about all the in's and out's of the plan and -- and -- and the people and stuff right there.

A little later -- I got some dates here, (inaudible) I was promoted to the State Lead for Recreation for BLM Alaska. And I worked that for about three years until about 1990, I believe.

And then -- Then I transferred to -- down to be the State Lead for Recreation in Arizona. So it was a kind of a lateral position. Same -- same position, different state. Different -- different issues and stuff.

And I worked pretty much on that until I retired. Although I did a couple years for again assigned to the Washington office working on the recreation management information system for the Bureau. So in a nutshell, that was my -- my path to get me here to Scottsdale, Arizona.

KAREN BREWSTER: And when did you -- when did you retire?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: I retired in 2003. So I was -- I retired five days after I was eligible and grabbed my -- my banjo and my suitcase and then joined my wife who was teaching in -- in England at one of the universities there. So we -- she says, "This is a very small cottage, you can't bring much, but you can bring your banjo."

KAREN BREWSTER: You have a very understanding wife. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Oh, she is. Oh, believe me.

KAREN BREWSTER: All right, well that's a great precursor to getting us to your role with the Iditarod Trail. So do you want to start with, you know, back in 1978, '79 and what was -- TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Sure. KAREN BREWSTER: -- going on and your role?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. And -- and the thing I was kind of reflecting on just even this morning that there -- we have to remember where the Bureau was in 1978, '79. They had just passed the Federal Land Management Policy Act. The Land Policy and Management Act, FLPMA in '76. And the designation of the trail came on there.

So it -- the whole role of the Bureau changed in -- in that and that's -- And it certainly didn't change overnight. I mean, for in -- in 1975, we were still worried about cattle grazing. And not that we didn't -- but strictly disposing of land, transferring land to states. Grazing, mining and that sort of thing, and recreation wasn't -- was -- happened 'cause we had -- still had some wonderful recreation values throughout the -- the country, but it was never emphasized.

Then with FLPMA, all of a sudden it became kind of management, protection and enhancement and development. So it -- It really went from more of the multiple-use agency more in line with what the Forest Service mandate was at that time. But again, that didn't -- didn't happen overnight.

So then when the project office, which was formed in '79 really just picked up where the Bureau of Outdoor Recreation left off on the -- the gold rush study. "The Iditarod Trail and Other Gold Rush Trails," I think it was. The report was. And that's something that -- that Pat Pourchot -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: -- who I think you already talked to, worked on.

And -- and -- and so there was a kind of a handoff from one Interior agency to the other of that. So we, you know, grabbed everything that they had, which was primary -- primarily their one booklet that showed the -- the trails that they identified that were designated. And that was -- that was really our starting point for where -- where we began.

In '79, the State Recreation Lead had been Cary Brown. And he took -- Matter of fact, we were on a river trip on the Fortymile River. Big kind of "show me" trip with the Washington folks and that's when I first heard about the -- the National Trail project team there, and I said I really want to be on that. Put in for it and was -- was able to.

But he assembled the team with -- with me as kind of the project planner. Steve Peterson, which is historic architect. Bob Spude, who worked for the National Park Service, he was our historian. And we had quite a few other -- other temporaries and work-study students and stuff. We had a little -- quite a -- quite a little group of people that, you know, we just got together and said, "Well, what do we do now?" We'd never done anything like that before.

My role is the project planner, I was -- I was sort of the -- the cog in the middle that kind of had to bring -- Cary kind of directed what needed to be done, you know. And then we all through discussions through all of us, but he directed. And I was sort of the one that kind of took all the information in and -- and started pulling the Volume One, Volume Two of the comprehensive plan together.

I put the pieces together and participated in some of the different activities and -- and stuff. And so, but, it was really a -- it was a fun interagency group of people and, I mean, they're all -- It was all great doing that. So that was -- that's how we kind of got -- all got together.

KAREN BREWSTER: Do you know -- do you know how the different people were selected?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: I'm not -- I'm not sure on that. It'd be -- I -- I recommend -- I can give you a contact for Cary Brown. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: I -- I -- I'm sure he would be happy to talk about that thing. I -- I just know when I got there we were a team and we went off -- took off running.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. Yeah, it -- When you look at the list of who all was on there. Yeah, you say, you know, Bob Spude, Steve Peterson, you -- TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Jean Swearingen. KAREN BREWSTER: Jean Swearingen.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Patty Fran, which was an Iditarod musher helped us for a while. Yeah, it was -- it was quite a -- It was a good -- good group of people. Now that's --

Yeah, it was just matter of bringing all those pieces together and -- and trying to get a plan in the timeframe, 'cause it was a pretty tight timeframe, I think. I think it was we're supposed to have it by the end -- everything completed by the end of 1981, I believe.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, and what -- For people who don't know what -- this is a comprehensive management plan for the trail, so what goes into that? How do you know what to talk about? What's the purpose?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: There were some -- Well, it's alw -- It's always, you know, really high down -- high down the trail. I mean it was -- The maps in the BOR report were dotted lines on a -- on a single page, and you had to do that. (Pause in interview from phone ringing) Where we left off? It was the --?

KAREN BREWSTER: So the purpose of the plan?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Oh, well it's the -- I think the National Trails Act kind of outlined what should be in a -- a comprehensive plan. And a lot of is, you know, identifying the trail, rights of ways, interpretation. Who's -- who's involved and everything.

And, at that time the -- at the same time, we were working on the -- the country -- the Park Service primarily -- Well, the Park Service work on the Oregon Trail and the Mormon Pioneer Trail, so we -- we had meetings with those folks down in Denver, just to kind of compare notes and to share information and get an idea of what -- what made up the plan.

So, put the pieces together and based on the -- the National Trail System Act, which called for it, and the coordination with -- with the Park Service on what they had done and were doing is kind of how we came up with the -- the outline of the plan.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so. Let's see, so what exactly went into the plan? What -- You know, maybe summarize that outline.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Well, I -- I think the first, probably at least half a year, were just gathering -- gathering information. On -- on the historic sites, old trail maps, old photographs.

We did the oral history part. We hired a gentleman by the name of Tom Beck, who -- who went out to the different villages and just being -- and tried to get some of the old timers who we knew weren't going to be around forever to -- to talk about their experiences on there.

And I was actually happy, after you asked me to be on this, to find out that those things are available online. I thought that was -- Matter of fact, that was very exciting for me to see what is available to the public.

So, as far as the outline, I think, you know, we're -- we're all -- we're planners and stuff used to doing different things, I think is just put it together and came up with the outline that's in -- that's in the thing. And to tell you the truth, I can't -- can't remember -- I don't have a copy of that one in front of me to do it, but if you went down, look at that, that's -- that's what came.

And I think that's pretty standard, even if you look at the -- the Park Service and what they've done with the -- like the Oregon Trail and stuff. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: As far as the -- You know, it's just the public access, public information, protection of properties, public use of the trail, and gathering -- you know, gathering the information and keeping it in one place, which I'm glad it seems to be.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, that management plan is still out there. I don't know how much they're following -- It hasn't been updated. And, as you say, you did the draft. It was a draft. I don't know that there's ever been a final one.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yes. Yes, there was a final one. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, there was a final one? TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, '86. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, that's right. That's right.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: The draft -- the draft was kind of interesting. We -- under that tight deadline get that thing done in -- in two years. We -- we came up with the resource -- the Volume Two, the resource inventory of everything that we had found and documented and where -- where it ended up.

And the Volume One and we -- we started releasing that to, I think -- I think there's probably a few copies of that original '81 -- one out. And went back to Washington D.C. to present it to the higher ups there in the Bureau. And you gotta remember, in 1981 the -- the president was Ronald Reagan, and we were sort of in an aust -- we went into an austere period.

And again with kind of a -- an administration that didn't really want to spend too much money on the federal government lands and with FLPMA's -- with the change in the Bureau's whole thing, we were basically told it was too aggressive and we couldn't release any more copies of that.

And, but that was the vision, and again that was part of, you know, working with what the other National Historic Trails measured by the Park Service that was sort of their, you know, they -- You do have national trail offices and multiple staff and everything, but, you know, we were a -- Bureau was the poor -- the poor sister of the Department of Interior agencies that -- that the -- the higher ups weren't as enthused about what we had proposed. And -- and -- and quite honestly, there wouldn't have been money to do it anyway just 'cause the budgets were really, really tight.

And that's -- that's a part of what led to me teaming up with the state and the Joint State Federal Trail Office, 'cause we could combine budgets and get some stuff done. It was a very productive time.

KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm. So you mentioned that the Park Service does a lot of this trail administration in other places. Why was BLM given responsibility for the Iditarod Trail instead of the Park Service?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Well, I -- 'cause I think the -- 'cause the Bureau -- the Bureau was -- had land involved in it. We were -- we were managing -- Before the national trails, we were managing sections of the trail, and we were an agency that was set up -- Park Service, though, of course, they're well represented in -- in Alaska, they didn't have any -- any piece of the action there.

And I -- I think it was, again, after -- We had gone -- I think -- But, I think the congressman actually kind of wanted us to kind of have a little bit of the action and stuff. So -- And -- and I'm kind of glad --

Well, for me, I'm glad it happened that way 'cause it was a good experience. But if had gone to the Park Service, who knows what the reception as far as supplying budgets and staff would have been. No, I don't know. That's a interesting thought.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, also, the interesting thought I haven't thought about before until listening to you is the impact of the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA), which came after you started all this. You know, that was in '81, '82. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: And did that eff --? TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Park Service, they had their hands full.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah. So, and -- and you're right that none of the -- in '78, '79, '80, the Park Service didn't have as much jurisdiction in Alaska, and then afterwards they were so overwhelmed with ANILCA. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: That it does make sense that BLM had the --

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: And it's kind of funny, I mentioned earlier that I started work for the BLM at the Yukon Resource Area, we managed part of the state. That was -- That's pre-ANILCA. And so, yeah, we -- we had management of all those areas, you know, and staff, and stuff like that.

And then when ANILCA came in, and -- and I've forgotten about the sequence of that, but you're absolutely right. It was just all -- it all changed very, very quick. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, they had -- had enough to worry about. And probably still do.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yes. Well, this is the first I've heard of this Joint State Federal Trails Office. I know there was a Joint Pipeline Office for a period. The pipeline (Trans-Alaska Pipeline) corridor and all that, but I'm curious to hear more about this joint trails office.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Well, it was just -- it was just a matter of -- I went on -- It was basically me and Ron Crenshaw situated at -- at state parks, and to work on trail issues. And it was just a matter of the funding wasn't there for much Iditarod or other work.

And with the plan having been at least, I think, approved at that time and stuff, the state was anxious to kind of get -- They were very up on the Iditarod Trail and especially around north of Knik through the Susitna Valley and stuff, they want to get some of the rights of ways established and stuff.

And so with me coming over there, I helped them identify the trails and get the paperwork done to -- to get some of those trails tied down and stuff.

So it was -- Instead of a one man operation, it was sort of a two man operation, but it was very, very effective, because we worked with -- with all the other state park people and in the lands office and and -- stuff. And they were very, very good hosts -- hosts to me being there.

It was a unique opportunity for a federal employee to work in the state government, because I noticed how -- how things happened at different speeds in federal government versus state office, you know, or -- or -- or the state parks. It was a -- it was a -- it was -- it was neat.

KAREN BREWSTER: So did it work faster on the state versus the federal?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Well, things -- things happen. You know, the state legislature says something and it gets done next week, a lot of times or very quickly, and -- and stuff.

And, yeah, where -- where everything's right there, where the Bureau is, you know, you got your two-year budget process and this and that and everything. Yeah, so it's -- from a coordination standpoint, it was -- it was -- it was -- it was a good place to be at that point.

KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm. So you had mentioned that the initial draft plan, you kind of got push back on that it wasn't quite acceptable. So did you make changes to it and then what happened to get it to the final?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, well we did. We were -- we were given -- There was a lot of things in there that, like projected budgets for the different agencies, and they said, "Well, no, that -- Bureau can't be telling other agencies what they outta be budgeting." And some of the -- And -- and I think that the scope of the National Trail Office versus a one-person administrator and stuff. I -- I can't remember all the stuff that -- But, yeah, we pretty much --

And then that was after the team dis -- dis-assembled, I guess, or faded out and stuff, I still had to -- I had to make those changes in the draft and kind of get those -- start getting those through there to -- to make it acceptable so that they would sign up there. Sign -- sign off on the -- on the plan. So, yeah, but we finally got there, I think it was '86 finally got the approval.

I think one of the reasons it went there, I think the congressmen kept getting letters. Don -- Don Young and Frank Murkowski and Ted Stevens, they kept getting, you know, "What happened to that Iditarod?" Always comes from Alaska. And I think -- I -- I was looking through one of my old notes and stuff and I -- or -- newspaper interview and said, you know, "I think they got tired of answering those letters." So we -- we got the funding and the -- the approval to get that done.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. So who -- who approves it in the end? It was a upper levels of BLM administration?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Well, Secretary of the Interior. It's the Secretary's trail.

So it was a -- it was the Assistant Secretary sign on that. I think it might have been Hodel at that time (Donald P. Hodel, Under Secretary of the Interior 1981-1983; Secretary of the Interior 1985-1989). I can't remember.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. I just didn't know -- Yeah, it -- It was only B -- It was only BLM that had to approve it? The other agencies represented on that team didn't need to get it approved?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: No, they -- they just had to -- we had to cooperate with them and -- and show that we had cooperated with them and -- and stuff. And it was Secretary of the Interior. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Who was doing that for -- for us, Fish and Wildlife Service, and -- and all. And Forest Service was amenable to it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and yeah, the oral history project that you mentioned, that was to document some of the historic uses of the trail, right? TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yes. Yes. KAREN BREWSTER: Which is to --

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yes, to -- And I think what -- I think Tom was able to go out and get, I think, about twenty different interviews or so. I forget how many were out there, but it was -- there was -- There was a good and -- and the fact that he (inaudible) --

One of the things I did before I left the Trail Administrator position, I -- I got those tapes over to the Alaska -- Across the street to the historical museum to -- 'cause I was afraid -- I was afraid they'd get lost.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, well, it's great. We have copies here at the Rasmuson Library Oral History Collection. And then ARLIS is what you're -- the -- TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yes.

KAREN BREWSTER: What is it Alaska Resources Library? I can't remember what it stands for. (ARLIS=Alaska Resources Library & Information Services) TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: But they're the ones who digitized them and put 'em online.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Oh, that -- that was wonderful. That was -- that was very, very thrilling to -- to see they still existed.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yes, so thank -- thanks to you. And then there's transcripts, as well. Sort of there was a report that was produced. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Mm. KAREN BREWSTER: A hard copy report that we have in our library.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, I think it was probably Steve Peterson and Bob Spude that -- that I notice you were asking whose idea was that. I'm sure it was the -- the historians who said, "Yeah, we got to get these guys."

And -- and they -- they found Tom who -- who actually did it. And I think we went out on a couple with him, but he -- he was the primary interviewer and -- and had his system down, but, yeah, it was -- it was neat.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it was a great idea because, yeah, those guys aren't there anymore,

And, um, I guess the Bureau of Recreation Survey that you mentioned, the BOR report, they didn't go talk to people. They were doing it -- sort of the land use part, right?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, right. Yeah, it was the initial -- the initial study to see if it was worthy or not and stuff. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, it was a -- You know, it was a good -- a good effort. And I'm glad it survived.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah, and I think not so common a thing to do in a comprehensive management plan.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, well, it was -- it was -- because of -- because it was a historic property, and we were looking at historic resources where -- where and they were then, you know, third -- first person knowledge on that. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: And the other -- the other parts of it, too, is -- We -- I can't remember the -- the two -- or another Park Service guys that I don't think weren't listed in anything I found. They went out and did hand's drawings of things like Rohn River Roadhouse and -- and the existing structures and one of them that were getting ready to fall in there.

And I think those -- I'm not sure if those records ended up in -- in -- in public domain, but I'm -- I'm sure they're somewhere and stuff.

But just document these ones that forty years later that they might not even be there or in worst condition, but at least document the structural condition of them at the time. And -- and that was really valuable. They -- they worked one -- one season with us to do that.

KAREN BREWSTER: And they were for the Park Service? TERRY O'SULLIVAN: The Park Service, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, Steve Peterson might know about it. 'Cause that was one of my -- one of my questions is, yeah, what was out there on the trail at the time? Was there still any physical evidence, and whether structures or archaeology and -- and how was that documented?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Well, there were -- A lot of the old roadhouse remains. Rohn River was probably the one that was in the best condition and still being used periodically.

And so --And then the volume -- the Volume Two listed all those properties that were -- that were -- that were there. And I think that the condition and -- and the recommendations, what should be done with them. Whether they should be maintained or, you know, stabilized and what are just -- But -- but we just needed to document where they were in '80, '81.

KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm. Yeah, I haven't seen Volume Two. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: It's -- it's actually on the ARLIS thing. KAREN BREWSTER: Is it? Okay.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. So, for years -- For years, I -- I had all those documents and stuff. I was cleaning out -- It was probably just six months ago, I donated to one of the libraries here, and stuff.

I had the old BOR Report. The -- the yellow (inaudible) one and that. And Volume One, Volume Two and -- and stuff, I might. And that I cleaned -- Ah, I was there, "Nobody's gonna want to see this stuff." And I -- I thought I was moving to England there so I was cleaning out things and trying to get 'em like donate to a library. But -- but then when you call, I go, "Oh, I wish I had that stuff." Well, I had enough -- I had enough to --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, well, I'm glad that ARLIS has the Volume Two. Our library only has Volume One, and we have the BOR Report. But since I only saw Volume One, I wondered was there ever a Volume Two done? So you've now answered that.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: And it was strictly called resource inventories and stuff. And it had a very good -- Yeah, it's -- it's nice showing the trails that we looked at. And it was just a wealth of information

I -- I went through it last night and I go, I -- I just stumbled onto it myself when I found ARLIS and stuff. And so, I recommend you scan that. There's a lot of good info.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. So, the other question is, since the trail was out of use for so long, how did you guys mark the route? How did you figure that out?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: We -- from the planning team, we -- we didn't mark it. So you got to remember, BLM had two roles here. The trailer administrator. And then the -- the management of -- of it. And it wasn't just a single trail, it was a trail network all there.

So what the project team did is we, through the research of finding old maps, you know, going back to Goodwin study of 1908 and -- and old USGS maps and anywhere we could find a record, we refined the -- further defined -- further defined the -- any route that we could on there.

So, what we did is just kind of try to tie down, to the best we could, where the trail -- trail was. You know, in some cases the trail is down the middle of the Yukon River during the wintertime. So, that -- that was pretty easy.

The BLM had a big stretch across the Farewell Burn from Rohn River up to McGrath. That was -- that was pretty easy to do. And, of course, the Iditarod Trail Committee, they had been marking the trail for their two different race routes. So -- so parts of those -- the trail network was already there.

I think most of the BLM management -- So, the coordination role, I was sort of the -- the well house, the go-to guy for information. So, going through some of my old files and stuff, I was -- I'd get contact by the Mat-Su Borough, the City of Nome, state lands department and stuff when they were working on a project. Say, "Okay, Iditarod Trail here, what does it mean to us?" So, I'd -- I'd go talk to them or -- or document, "Well, it's -- it's here as best we know. Our recommendation was this. There's this historic property there."

And then, it's their land. It's not the federal land in -- in those cases, and they -- they would take that information and -- and were actually pretty good about --

Yeah, I think -- I think Alaskans are pretty protective of the Iditarod and anything associated with -- with that. So, that was -- that was sort of -- sort of my role.

In the trail management role, I think a lot of the actual on the ground management, I -- I didn't go out and mark trails or anything there. I was more of a public information guy. But I think subsequent trail administrators slash (/) managers, which that role became, started working on the public use sites and -- and stuff like over for the Kaltag portage and that sort of stuff.

And I kind of followed a little bit of that. So, those sorts of management things, but it wasn't -- Mine -- mine was coordinator and source of information. Iditarod guru, I guess.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and in that role, did you collaborate with the Iditarod Trail Advisory Council?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Oh, yes. Yeah. We -- we did. And both formally and informally, 'cause there was a -- I'd forgotten there was sort of a break in the action with the advisory council. The first one was appointed in -- in '90, '91, right before we -- we released the first draft and got their input on that. And then there -- I can remember three, four meetings in there.

But then, even informally talking to Joe Redington and Dan Seavey and Dick Mackey and -- and this sort of thing. There was different issues that would come up. So -- so we did -- we did work with them there.

And then there was -- At the end of the first term -- I can't remember quite the dates on that. Then the -- the Bureau was kind of dragging their feet on -- or the Secretary, the Bureau, whoever, on -- on reappointing the -- the committee there, but -- but again, you know, the coordination kept -- kept happening, maybe not in a formal thing.

But I'd be really interested to -- to see what the meeting notes from any advisory council meetings were. I didn't have any of those and stuff, so I can't remember all the things. I remember three or four meetings that we had with them. And talk about different issues.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, and I can't remember if they were formed right at the beginning with the historic trail designation. Or did they come later?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Pretty close. Well, yeah, well, a little bit -- a little bit later, I think. I think they came about the time the project team. I have -- I have '81. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: And -- and, in fact, I have this -- this one book says, "Advisory Council appointed January 14, 1981 by the Secretary of the Interior." So. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: So, that was the first one. So that was a little bit after, but that's it. So we had been working since '79 to get something for them to advise on. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. Yeah, it's --

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: And so, they were reviewing the -- that draft that didn't see the light of day. Or too much light. And we got input from them. It was -- it was a really -- a real good group of people to -- to work with.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay, so they didn't help put together the plan? They reviewed it and made comments?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: They reviewed this, yeah. Well, they reviewed it and stuff. Now, we -- all the writing was done by us. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Okay. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: And pulled that together. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: So, and with -- with advisory, that -- that was their role. And they had other things to do like run races and businesses and cities and stuff like that.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, there's also there's the Iditarod Trail Committee, which you mentioned who, you know, put on the race and, you know, Joe Redington and Dick Mackey marking the trail for the racing.

But then the advisory council is for the actual trail. And it's now called the Iditarod Historic Trail Alliance. They changed. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Okay, I see that. KAREN BREWSTER: They changed their name. So they -- they kind of have different roles. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Hm-mm.

KAREN BREWSTER: And I just didn't know, yeah, how BLM worked with and coordinated with the council. And did the council come to you and say, "We'd like BLM to do this, this and this," or --?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Well, probably in the meetings and stuff that we -- we -- we, you know, had -- had meetings. I think they were trying to get for two a year during that critical period where we were writing it and stuff. And as I recall, they're -- any issue they had before the meeting would get on the agenda to be dealt with and stuff.

I -- I was long gone before the -- the Trail Alliance got formed and -- and I didn't -- I didn't actually realize that there was no advisory council there. But it makes -- makes perfect sense that that's what happened, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, well, it's -- it's still -- I think they play the same role. They just changed their name. As you say, they were advising on the plan and the early implementation. And now they're like the "friends of the trail" group.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, but I -- but I don't -- I don't think they're appointed by the Secretary of the Interior. KAREN BREWSTER: No, no. No.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Whether they're still working with BLM? I mean, it's -- which is great. That's -- that's the -- That's the whole thing of the cooperation -- cooperative management of the trails that makes perfect -- perfect sense and probably easier. 'Cause the -- because the charter doesn't run out of time and stuff.

The other -- the other group I want to really mention, too, is the Iditarod Trail Blazers. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, great. Thank you.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: So, early on, even in that first draft, it was -- and -- and they had come to us that -- There was Dan Seavey down in Seward and Joe Redington in Knik, especially they -- I think -- I'm not sure which came first, but they came up with the idea what we need is these individual volunteer trail groups to take care of segments of the trail.

And that was really, really a neat thing, especially down in Seward. I'm a -- I'm a lifetime member of the Seward Iditarod Trail Blazers. I was at the first meeting and paid my lifetime fee at that time, so I still get a newsletter, so I -- I really keep track of what's happening down there. And have a little message with Dan Seavey now and again, and -- and stuff.

In Knik, Joe, I think, was having a hard time getting volunteers for that part of it, because Knik was the center of all things Iditarod. And so -- and I'm not sure if that volunteer group ever took off as far as maintaining that. But with the Iditarod Trail Committee there, they're probably getting things done they wanted to get done.

But -- but I think the Iditarod Trail Blazers down in Seward has been just a huge success, just huge. And -- and that was -- that was the concept. I'm not sure how many chapters there are now along the trail, but I -- I -- I think that was a -- really a model -- model volunteer cooperative effort there. it's just neat.

KAREN BREWSTER: So they would go out and maintain the trail? That was the idea? TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Brush it out and --? I -- Yeah, I think there might have been one out of Nome.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: I wouldn't be surprised that -- I wouldn't be surpr -- Yeah, well it's just -- Yeah, they were basically trail maintenance and has been and -- and I know down in Seward, they do a lot of interpretation and stuff.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I was wondering if there was one out of McGrath, too? As you said, you know, that was a more used section of trail, and people are out there breaking trail and clearing brush. I don't know if McGrath had one, or currently it has one?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah, it was just the -- the two were in contention when I was there. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: And the -- and the concept still stays, I guess.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, well, I know, Dick Mackey and Joe (Reddington) did projects to brush out and mark the trail out of Knik up to Susitna Station, and -- TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- and up in -- up in that area, so I know at least those. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Through Rainy Pass. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I know at least those guys did that. I don't know if other people worked on other sections?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah, that was pretty much in support of the -- the race trail, but, of course, that keeps the historic route open and stuff, so it's -- it's all -- it's all hand and glove. It's all -- all good.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And then the southern portion, as you say, from Seward, you know, up through Eagle River and all that section, that's Forest Service. And that is more recently become a focus. I think during your period, that probably wasn't really happening then, was it?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Well, the -- the trail -- the trail was there, but as far as highlighting the national historical trail aspect --

I got a little side story, I was -- my wife and I, Ann Marie, were married up at Crow Pass. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. Fun. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: 2001. Yeah, we hiked up and had -- had -- one of our friends was marriage commissioner and we were -- dropped our packs and got married up at Crow Pass.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then did you keep going or did you --? TERRY O'SULLIVAN: We went down. We just got to -- Yeah, we were -- we were visiting Alaska and we just had -- our honeymoon was touring -- touring Alaska. KAREN BREWSTER: Great. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: And stuff. So --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I've never hiked -- I've never hiked that trail so -- But I do know when you go down the other side you have to cross the river. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah, we did. I never made it from -- But, a little bit from each end and -- and married up to Crow Pass. But, uh --

KAREN BREWSTER: That's great. One thing more on the plan before we move into, you know, what you did as administrator, is you kind of touched on it, but there are a lot of things mentioned in that plan that it looks like never happened. Like there was this whole concept of interpretive exhibits and there were historic photos in Nome that were going to be inventoried or something.

And at least the exhibits I don't think really happened, and so why did some things happen and others didn't?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Well, I -- I think -- I think those may have been part of the original concept of the '81 draft. And I think we discovered that that -- at that level of involvement and that amount of money, there wasn't in the works during the early '80s.

So, it just -- The decision -- the decision is, well, if you don't fund it, you know, it won't be done. So I -- I can't tell you exactly who, why, when, or what, but it's just the -- the money wasn't there is the bottom line. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: To do that.

KAREN BREWSTER: So, yeah -- so you can say in a plan it would be great, we want to do A, B, and C, but then you have to go get the money separately? TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: And if the money's not there --

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: And I'm not sure -- I'm not sure which -- which plan. It was the '86 plan that still had that in it? KAREN BREWSTER: I don't remember.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Or -- I -- I think -- I think you -- I think you might have a copy of that '81 plan, which I know there were copies around that -- that had -- that was part of that whole National Trail Office concept to -- to have a staff and do all these things and have the money rolling in.

You know, and that was shot down, it was you're lucky to get funding for one person. And I'm -- I'm pretty sure the trail administrator is -- is has "other duties as assigned," even today.

You know, so I did (inaudible) part of the -- their -- their -- their remit, but I'm just guessing that's the case. So --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, well, that -- that explains it that you write a pla -- just 'cause you put something in a plan, doesn't mean you have the money to do it. It's the, if we had all the money in the world, we'd like these things to happen?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, and if -- and if it's in a draft plan that doesn't get approved, it really doesn't get adequate --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, that's true. Okay, so you said you moved into the role as administrator. So let's talk about that a little bit.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, and what that was, that was kind of like a -- the -- the source -- and kind of touched on it a little bit. A source of information, as far as anything to do with Iditarod. Pretty much the historic trail, I was the contact person.

So, I -- like I mentioned, if there's someone working on a right of way or a road re-alignment or different things, they'd contact me. And plus -- plus also, I was sort of on this -- this speaking tour, too. I went to schools, Chamber of Commerce meetings, different city meetings, went down to Seward, I think, once.

And so, just went around to give people -- to tell them, this is what the Iditarod is, and this is what we're doing and -- and this is how to get involved type of thing. So I did a lot of that.

Wrote different articles for different papers. And I was the interview person when the papers wanted something about happening on the Iditarod. Got -- got a couple of those and stuff.

So the coordinator was -- I wasn't so much on the trail clearing brush, I was there fielding questions and -- and providing information to the -- the public and the agencies and the user groups and -- and even visitors there that wanted to -- You know, we got a lot of letters say, "I want to hike the Iditarod." "You know, well -- So that's -- that's not going to work." You know, that type of thing. So that's -- the coordinator was whatever came up that day, really, is what I did.

KAREN BREWSTER: Were there -- were there permitting issues you were involved with?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yes, I was. After -- after the Joint State Federal Trail Office -- We -- we went strong for two years where I was located in State Parks. That's in '80 -- By the end of '83 is when the -- the Iron Dog Race was -- was proposed.

And that was -- that was probably the biggest controversy that I had to deal with. The -- the snowmachine club wanted to run a race for their -- and just like we did every year on the Iditarod we had to go through the environmental assessment and decide if the permitting was there. So I was the primary one working -- working on that permit,

And the Iditarod Trail Committee didn't -- didn't want the snowmachiners on their trail. "Their trail." And so that -- that was a very interesting. There were a couple of court cases there that the one fella, I forgot his name, and he didn't have standing and stuff.

And we did -- ended up issuing the permit. But that was after negotiation with changing the start date for the -- for the snowmachine race to from two weeks to three weeks after the -- the Iditarod Race, and modifying the race course a little bit, and some other safety recommendations and stuff like that. And -- and it went off without -- without incident.

And I was looking through an article a couple days ago and when the next one came up, the actually -- the trail committee was -- was saying, you know, that worked out pretty well though they're -- they're easy to work with and stuff so.

But it was -- it -- it -- it was -- It was an interesting period, because the -- both the -- the two issues that kinda came up from different people, one -- one was safety. And that one has a very, very valid thing. And that's what we try to do as far as the spacing of the -- of the two things.

And the other thing was a snowmachine historic trail. Well -- well, it was, yes, this is historic as snowmachines are using it now and it's just -- so it wasn't just a snowmachine it was the race. So it was a lot of -- there -- there was a lot of emotion in there.

And the -- one of the concessions from the -- from the Iron Dog people where they were -- they were calling -- They -- they took off Iditarod out of their -- their name. And part of it was the identity of the trail committee and stuff, but they said, "Oh yeah, well we -- we'll change it to the, I guess, the Iron Dog Race or -- Instead of the Iditarod Snowmachine Race or whatever. And so -- but anyway, that was -- We got through that and I'm -- I'm not sure how many more years that they both are using that, but, you know, we had Iditabike, Iditaski. KAREN BREWSTER: Yep. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Iron Dog. And that's a lot of different competitive events on there.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and they're all still going on and that was -- I wondering if the Iditabike, Iditaski thing came up in -- during your tenure? Or that --?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, it -- It did. But I think the Idita -- Yeah, I think their first proposals were there, but it turned out they weren't -- where they were going wasn't on BLM land or where -- there's never a permit issue there. I can't remember all -- how that all came -- came about. But we didn't -- we weren't in it -- we didn't entertain any permits for those things.

And I think some of those early ones weren't for the whole Iditarod, it was just sort of the like, from -- from around Knik up to Rainy Pass or in that stretch somewhere that they were trying that stuff. Maybe after Iditabike through the snow, they decided they didn't want to go to Nome? I don't know.

KAREN BREWSTER: No, they -- they still do. Some people only go as far as McGrath and other ones go all the way to Nome. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Oh, that's kinda cool.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, yeah, these big fat tire bikes now. Well, they've been doing it long before those fat tire bikes.

But it is an interesting question about the snowmachines, be -- You know, I mean, snowmachines have been used in Alaska, in rural Alaska, since, what -- TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- 1960'ish. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yes, they have. KAREN BREWSTER: So is that historic?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, and -- and there's no requirement. I mean, when -- you know, part of the historic trail may be a little close to the -- Well, even like, say, the Oregon Trail, where the Oregon Trail is interstates (highways) now and cars drive down it, does that hurt the Oregon Trail? Probably not.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, interesting. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, but it -- it's just there, so it's --

There's no requirement for use. And these are rights of ways in the past that people have used. And because it's now a national trail does that not allow them to do that? Well, we thought, no that's -- that's not an issue.

And it was sort of like I said more -- it was the ri -- the safety issue that was the concern in dealing with the permit. And -- and -- and I think we worked that out.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, and it's not a non-motorized recreation trail, it's a historic trail and those are different designations. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Right. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Do you remember that -- I can't remember the guy's name either, who had the -- the biggest concern in the court case. What his issues were? TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Oh, I think it was Lafferty. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, that's right.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, Lafferty, as I recall. And, yeah, well, it was just -- I -- I -- I don't -- I don't remember. It was that the issue of this is a historic trail and they shouldn't be doing -- I -- I don't remember that. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, okay. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: But, it was as I recall he didn't have standing and it was dismissed. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: We had a -- we had another court hearing. An administrative law judge for some -- And maybe it was an out (?) thing. I don't quite remember. But basically, a -- a case was brought to him because of the race. But he basically said, "Well, you know, BLM's not breaking the law, but on the other hand they're not -- They need to get their management plan done."

The advisory council had -- was in limbo and stuff. And -- and I think in some ways that really helped us get back -- get back on finding -- finishing that plan and getting that advisory council reappointed. So it -- it was -- and maybe, all in the long run a good thing for the -- still getting my (inaudible).

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. The other thing I was going to say about snowmachines is they make very good trail breakers. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Hm. KAREN BREWSTER: You know, maybe that's why the trail committee finally decided, "Oh, that's not so bad. They're breaking the trail for us." TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, well the thing is that their race was done and they didn't have to worry about it for another year. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh I see. Oh, it was -- okay, the Iron Dog comes after the dog race? TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah, usually. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. And that was their -- their concern, especially when it was a two weeks Iditarod. They were putting in articles about, well, it takes them three to four days to get to Nome and takes us as much as -- some of the early ones almost a month or two weeks.

And they had that thing they were afraid of the -- the race -- the racers in the snowmachines catching up to the tail end of the -- the lantern holders in the -- (red lantern is the last musher) KAREN BREWSTER: Right. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: In the dog sled race.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And -- and also I could see that the snowmachines are going so fast that they'd make lots of washboardy on the trail. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Which is very unpleasant on a dog sled.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, it is. So, yeah it was -- Anyway, that -- As far as in my dual role as -- and that was my dual role at that time I was working for the McGrath Resource Area working on the permit, and also trail administrator dealing with all these different people that I was -- especially became -- It came out okay.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. So the other thing I was thinking about, the land ownership, conveyance, right of way stuff that had to go on 'cause BLM did not own all the land that the trail went across. Were you involved in any of that?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Well, not -- not directly. As things -- I mean, I did work with the BLM conveyance people and stuff. Now, a lot of these were easements that were already in place again before the designation or during or something like that.

But I -- like I say, when I was working with the state they were anxious to get their trails locked in and I worked with them a little bit. Again, showing this is what we have, this is what we know, and everything.

We even came up with -- Oh, the other thing I wanted to show you. We even came up with official -- official markers. (showing one of the marker signs) KAREN BREWSTER: Oh right, the -- with the logo.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: With the logo and -- and we're -- the idea was to have this square to show the -- Whoops. The trail. You know the volunteer group doing it. And then these -- did -- some of these did go up in that part north of Knik.

But we found out they became collector's items too quick. So, and I think the Iditarod Trail got one of the Iditarod Trail signs too, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, that's different. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, and that -- that was what they were putting out prior to the national trail. And then -- then we came up with -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, those yellow ones were the national trail? Oh, I see with the dog team, and yeah. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Slightly different logo. And then I see the yellow one has the trail blazers name.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, and then -- and then we had some that were kind of blank that as Nome or -- KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Any other area, we can put the identifier there. So that was the -- became semi -- Well, it was official logo and I guess the official trail marker, too, that we were trying to get out there. And I doubt any of those are out there anymore.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, there's -- I haven't been out on the trail, so I don't know, there must be some markers so people know where to go. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, there are markers. Just this design. I don't know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Lost track of that.

KAREN BREWSTER: I -- I do know out of Nome, they have the tripods that they put up since they don't have trees to put those signs on. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: But so with the easements and right of ways, how does that work? If the land is owned by a corporation or the state -- a Native corporation or the state, they are then going to transfer that land to BLM for the trail or --? TERRY O'SULLIVAN: No, it's just -- KAREN BREWSTER: -- they just put a right of way?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: It's an easement. Yeah, an easement or right of way. Yeah, it's their land. It's just the public has a right to -- to -- to use it.

Yeah, there -- there was no -- And there was never an intent of the BLM to start getting rights of way for them to manage. I mean, that -- that was never -- never the concept even in those early days. It was a matter of identifying and getting the landowner and the -- the documentation to -- to allow that. And --

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. And when -- Who did you report to at BLM? Did you have to get approval for these things you were doing as administrator?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, I worked -- Well, basically it'd have been the probably District -- District Manager of the time. And of the Anchorage District was sort of that -- that was the chain of command there. So I basically had an office -- offices in two places. And I -- I wasn't like I abandoned the Bureau for two years while I was at the State. I worked there, and so I was still, even at that time, still doing a little bit of, you know, on -- on both sides of the fence management and administration there.

'Cause it just -- just made sense. I was -- I was the only one there. There wasn't another person handling -- I did a lot on the ground stuff for the Bureau while I was at State Parks. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: With both, but I was housed at State Parks.

KAREN BREWSTER: But then you went -- you went back to the Anchorage field office, right? TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah, McGrath Resource Area, then up to the -- back to the Anchorage District Office. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so, you had supervisors who approved your projects that you were working on?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: I just -- Again it was, yeah, I kept them informed what was going on. Any issues that were coming up and stuff. There was nothing -- nothing I initiated -- initiated out of the blue to say, "Oh, now, I got an idea." But it's just a matter of the information flow and -- and keep -- keeping everybody on board and keeping the public on board what was happening and stuff.

But, yeah, and then the good example was the -- back to that Iron Dog controversy and stuff like that. I was working with them and was still a Bureau employee. I was just assigned to State Parks. It was --

I mean, unique situation, but -- 'cause State Parks didn't have really any -- any, I was gonna say dog -- dog in the race. Didn't have anything to say about that, but --

So just, you know, between the State Parks Director and the Anchorage District Manager, and that was Dick Tindall and Dick Vernimen and stuff. And -- and then, you know, the State Director (of BLM), whenever there was a briefing I got involved with the State Director. So it just kept -- I like to let people know what I'm doing.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, yeah, and I was wondering like that Iron Dog permit question and eventually it had to be approved by somebody at BLM. It wasn't just you approving it? Somebody up the chain of command had to approve it, right?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, it was -- I -- I don't know if it was the Area Manager or the District Manager. I think it was the Area Manager with approval from the District Manager, but it was -- yeah, it was my boss at that time through the Bureau.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. Yeah, it's lots of -- lots of layers of bureaucracy that I don't know the chain of command there.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah. So, for me -- from -- from a guy just working and you have your -- where there's a -- a division chief and a resource manager and a district manager and a state director. And lots of people in between. Well, not lots of people in between. That's about it.

But, you're right. There's chain of command, and depending on how serious it is -- 'cause it's kind of surprising, you know, a lot of letters I could sign myself to the public and here's -- here's what I know. And then, if there's any policy or issue that was the -- the managers would sign it. And -- and I wouldn't. So, 'cause I was not a manager in that respect.

KAREN BREWSTER: Do you feel -- do you feel like you were given support within the BLM structure or did they kind of just put you off on the side and "Oh, the trail's a nuisance, we don't want to deal with it."?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: No, no, I think good support. I mean, consid -- At the local -- Again, in Alaska, I -- people -- that's -- that's a good -- that's a good thing for Alaska and stuff. No, I had good, good support in the Bureau and that was just -- The only support that didn't come is during tight budget times you didn't get the money to maybe do some things you'd like to.

You go through a whole budgeting process. Do your proposals that run up the chain to Washington, and then a year or so later it comes down, and says, well here -- here's what money you have to work with. Figure out what you're going to do with it. They pretty much direct you what -- what you can do, and it becomes obvious.

And at that time, staffing -- I think things were pretty tight as I recall. I had four years ago, but I think just just getting people paid -- staff and a little bit of travel was -- was the goal for some of those years.

KAREN BREWSTER: Do you have some examples of a project that you would put in funding for you wanted to do and then you weren't able to?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: No, I -- I can't think -- I can't think of any. Again, it was for the two years after the planning it was just trying to get the word -- the word out.

And I think it was really, really good that the Bureau let me go over to State Parks. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: To do that cooperative thing. I -- I think that was a real -- a real plus, 'cause, I think, it gave everybody a shot in the arm to -- to get things done. And, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So at that time, you weren't overseeing projects like they do now where they're building a public shelter cabin or they're -- you know, somebody's out there brushing out a certain section? You -- you didn't have those kinds of projects?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: No. That was -- that wasn't going on. I was trying to get the -- the volunteer groups, the trailblazers, you know, going for that and stuff. You know, that was the -- The idea was definitely -- the word was down is cooperative management. Now, who else can you bring into the cooperation and stuff.

So no, I -- I didn't have any projects that I -- You know, that projects, but -- but I'm glad they do now. I mean, it's just -- they've done some really neat stuff that I've heard about.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And it's definitely still cooperative. As you say, there's -- like those shelter cabins. BLM isn't going out and building them there, you know, the local group is working with BLM at some -- It's done cooperatively.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Well, I'm -- I'm -- You'll have to ask the trail administrator. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: I'm not sure. I'm not sure how it's done now, but -- I know I imagine -- I imagine it's the Bureau doing out there with their help.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it's a -- Right. Exactly. It's still a cooperative thing and the historic -- the Iditarod Historic Trail Alliance, as well. That it's this cooperative between the Alliance and BLM and the local communities and the trail committee and, yeah. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: It's still very much cooperative and use of volunteers out on the ground. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Hm-mm.

KAREN BREWSTER: So did you spend any time out on the ground on parts of the trail?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: I did. During the various phases, I did go out with -- on some of the surveys. I got to Rohn River to look at some of the historic sites. Early on we -- we flew -- flew the length of the main part of the trail and land at a couple of the historic properties. And that was with Steve Peterson and stuff who was doing his surveys and stuff. So I was able to do that.

And then during -- I usually at race -- race time, I usually made it to the end of several of the races, and then as part of that, I would put on a little slideshow about the historic trail and stuff. So, kind of the information, but no -- I didn't have to do any brushing or -- or locating of trying to iden -- I didn't -- didn't have time for that. And again, no -- no money for that sort of thing at that time.

KAREN BREWSTER: And you didn't go out and do your own personal snowmachine or dog sled trip or ski trip out there?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: No. I've been on dog sled and been on snowmachine in the White Mountains (near Fairbanks) and -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: -- and other -- my other roles in the Bureau and stuff, but -- but not on the Iditarod.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay, so that wasn't part of your job duties? Other duties as assigned, go and play on the trail? (laughing) TERRY O'SULLIVAN: No. No.

KAREN BREWSTER: So, you talked about one of the -- the Iron Dog as one of the challenges. What would you consider some of your greatest successes or pleasures with working on the trail?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Well, I -- I think that whole project planning effort with -- with Cary Brown, and Steve (Peterson), and Bob Spude and stuff. I think -- I think that was -- that was a really unique opportunity in the Bureau to get that done. And, actually, though it took a while to get that final one done. To get the Volume One and Volume Two out.

And I think, especially, and the fact that it's -- it's still there. I'm -- you know, that's forty years later. Is kind of amazing that hasn't been updated, but maybe it's working just the way it's supposed to. I'm not sure. But I think that's -- that was a real success.

And like I mentioned before, not so much on my efforts, but the fact that the -- especially the Seward Trail Blazers are so active and -- and I'm kind of aware of what -- what they're doing. I think that's a success as part of the trail -- trail effort. Not necessarily my effort, but -- but I think that's a success of the trail that a volunteer group can be so active.

And you've got to hand it to Dan Seavey. He's just tireless in -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: -- in protecting that trail and making it, you know, good for the public. I may be more aware of that because I get my -- my newsletters on that from -- from them there, so I can just -- it makes me feel good when I read what they're doing.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, that's good. Were there other challenges or obstacles you faced along the way?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: I -- I -- I really can't think of any. No, it was just -- If anything, it was just budget. And so, you got your budget and you did what you could with it and that's -- that's the Bureau way. You just get on to what you can and then -- and then -- But no -- I wasn't -- watched somebody doing anything, it just wasn't funded from doing different things and stuff.

And the fact is, the final plan called for cooperative management, so my efforts were working with all the different agencies. And, yeah, we worked with Fish and Wildlife Service and the Innoko (Refuge) and everything, so it's -- No, there's none that I recall. Or if they happened, I put them out of my mind after all these years. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: But, I -- I don't think so. I think that Iron Dog one was the one I thought, "Oh man, this is -- you're gonna have open warfare here. Between the sleds and the snowmachines." But it didn't happen.

And -- and like I say, the second year, the -- the Iditarod Trail Committee said, "You know, they -- It worked out okay." And that the -- I think the year two, and what the '85 race. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Went without a hitch, too. And beyond that, I haven't kept track of it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and they -- they're still doing the Iron Dog Race and they're still doing the dog sled race, so they must get along.

I was thinking do you feel like your -- your involvement helped smooth that out to make it happen to get that permit?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: I think so. Yeah, I -- I think so. They were -- You know, tried to work with both of them and the Trail Committee at one point and they thought, "Well yeah, we'll -- we'll -- we'll get along with them." And then -- then they had a vote and actually the vote was pretty close whether they should oppose the race or not.

I found some old records that were given to me by the Trail Committee and their little protest against the race, and looking at some of their committee meetings it was there that some people who thought, no, cooperation's the way to go on this. And it turned out that's -- that's what worked, but yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it's interesting you say the dog mushers thought of it as their trail. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yep.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Were there challenges or problems working with the different agencies? I mean, you mentioned working with the state, but, you know, BLM, Park Service, Fish and Wildlife Service, they all have their own organizations and ways of doing things.

Did it mesh together or was that hard?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Oh, I think it meshed, 'cause everybody has -- has their own mission and they all had a piece of the trail. And it was just a matter of me -- If an issue came up, me working with that agency to -- to say, "Well, here's -- here's what this means."

But in the long run if it's on Forest Service land it's their -- their decision how to do that, but I -- I can't ever remember any conflicts between the agencies. I think everybody worked -- worked good on that.

When the plan was -- the final plan was finally done, the heads of the agencies all got together and got a copy and all the big wigs sat around the table and everybody got along. Yeah, those not -- They were probably happy that they didn't have to do the management plan.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and the different agencies, as you say, have different missions, so they would have different priorities and different budgeting. I mean, maybe the trail was a priority for BLM, but it didn't mean Fish and Wildlife Service cared anything about the section. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And did you have to deal with that?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: It never came up. Never came up there was a problem. No. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: No. I think -- I think everybody did what they could at the time with the money they had.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And, as you say, 40 years ago, it was a different time and a different phase in the trail. It was just getting it going. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yes.

KAREN BREWSTER: Versus now, it's much more of a management situation.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'd be interested you interview the current trail administrators, I'll be interested to look and see how they're -- What they're doing. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: It'd be fun.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I was gonna say you're -- there's things that you wish could have been done on the trail that didn't happen during your time or what you see for the future of the trail? I don't know if you can answer that since you've been out of it for so long?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, I think it's long -- long time. As I mentioned earlier in the interview, I was just very heartened to see all that information available online now that the public has. And even Volume One and Volume Two are -- is available. So, you need to -- to look at those.

But, the fact that -- that's survive, that's -- that's -- is really -- is really, really good. And I think that's a huge success at the Bureau and the subsequent trail managers have been able to pull that, and it's there. So, it's -- it's there forever.

And -- and, you know, the management issues change with times a bit and that stuff, but there -- there's always that base. Well, here -- here's how it started. And here was the concept and here's what we're trying to do.

A few of the important sites and trail segments and historic records that are pulled together. The photographs and all the old historic maps and -- and stuff. I think that the fact that that's one stop shopping now is -- is just incredible.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and from a planner's perspective, a -- a management plan that is now 40 years old, is that still useful or should there be a new one done?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: I -- I would think so. I would think so. But, not -- not being in that seat anymore. No, I don't -- I couldn't --

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it was sort of more of, yeah, not the specifics of this plan but just in general work on -- on plan -- From a planning perspective -- TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- using a 40-year-old plan, is that the most effective tool?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's been so it does work and (inaudible), but it would seem that from planning standpoint, yeah, I think it should be revisited. Let's put it that way.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. So after you left the trail administrator job that's when you went to Arizona, right? TERRY O'SULLIVAN: No, I -- No -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh no, you did the McGrath thing?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, well, I was still -- still trail administrator in McGrath. And -- and still at the Anchorage District Office. And then I went to the -- I was the State Program Lead for Recreation in Alaska. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, that's right. That's right.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: For about -- for about three years. And then I transferred down to Arizona.

I was a single parenting in those days. And I wanted to get -- take my son down and get him closer to our -- to our moms. My mom was living then and his mom was down in California, and I just wanted to get -- get him closer down there. So I got the job offer in Phoenix, and I just jumped at it. And it was a -- it was a good --

KAREN BREWSTER: But, as -- as the Alaska statewide recreation trail person, did you continue to be involved with the Iditarod Trail, at all? TERRY O'SULLIVAN: At -- at what point?

KAREN BREWSTER: What -- after you left BLM -- after you -- You became the state -- more statewide person? TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Oh yeah, Dean -- Dean Littlepage was the trail administrator at that time. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: And I -- We -- we talked about different things. I think -- I think he was instrumental in getting one additional trail segment out of Iditarod over to the Yukon River added to this -- this system.

And we actually had the Secretary of Interior (Manual) Lujan in town and he signed a document there. So, helped get that set up and everything. I did quite a -- did a little bit of a ceremony.

But no, I had -- I had lots of other issues to deal with there, but it was, you know, the baton had been passed and -- and Dean did a really good job of -- brought some new energy into that.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay, yeah, so you didn't have anything to do with it after you went statewide? TERRY O'SULLIVAN: No, I had state -- KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: I did. You know, his issues would come -- come down, but, basically on-the-ground issues. If anything, I'd -- I'd have -- I didn't make any decisions, but if some came down from a Congressman's office, I'd shoot it to Dean.

And I'd ship the response back and that sort of thing. But, so, I was aware and it became one of many things that was -- I had to keep track of. But -- but not -- I wasn't active in the managing or administrating at that point.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. Well, it's interesting what you said about Congressman Young and Senator Stevens and Murkowski getting letters from the public and that influencing some of the decision making.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: All right, I -- I think it did. Yeah, I -- I think it did. I think it just was -- I think they -- You know, 'cause they -- again, that was -- that was la -- That's the Iditarod's magic word in -- in -- in Alaska and -- and they, yeah, well, it -- it raised -- it raised the importance of getting that thing moved on.

'Cause, you know, it was -- the management plan and the advisory council was stalled at that point, and then that all of a sudden it enabled us to go to the next phase.

KAREN BREWSTER: Do you know was there a letter writing effort or campaign or --?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: No, I don't think so. I mean, just general -- Generally, it -- it -- I'm not sure.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. I can see Joe Redington pushing for --

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: I -- I could -- I could, too. Joe -- Joe's a wonderful person. I --You know, it was --

The other nice thing about my time in Iditarod that the wonderful people I got to meet along the way. I mean, just from -- from start to finish. From Seward to Nome, and -- and everywhere in between everybody involved and everybody so passionate about -- about the Iditarod. It was a very, very, very good positive BLM job to have.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, you just answered my -- what my question was, what did this mean to you having these years working on the Iditarod Trail? What has that meant to you?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: It was a -- Well, I tell you what, I've -- I've had a wonderful career that's ranged from Forest Service and BLM Alaska and BLM Arizona, and -- and just -- It's -- it's been great.

But it -- it was one of the high points and I do -- I do kind of keep track of what's -- what's happening on that, but it's kind of a nice thing and -- and, I mean, I'm more excited about since you asked me to prepare for this and I had to dig out -- dust off that file and dig out the signs and -- and do a little timeline there just kinda get things straight in my mind about all the things to do.

And there's more -- there's more of that coordination there that I -- that I didn't -- forgot I was involved in just at all different levels. Any -- any letter come to the Bureau, or the state for a while, on Iditarod, I'd -- I'd have to respond to it, and research it and get the information back that they were requiring.

And it was fun traveling around talking to the different groups, you know, different pioneers associations and brown bag lunches. And they all -- their little -- It was great. It was a fun -- fun job.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah, you were like the public information officer for the Iditarod Trail. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah. That was -- that was it. Yeah, I mean -- It was fun.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did you produce any pamphlets or booklets during that time?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: No. I -- I -- I didn't. No. 'Cause we had the plan -- Basically, we had a plan in hand and now we need to do that. But as far as going and doing any subsequent publications, you know, be -- be it press releases on different things and stuff I'd work with our public affairs in -- in Anchorage and stuff like that.

But, the -- No, I didn't have time. I was -- After getting the draft to final during that period, that was enough writing for a while. The -- That was -- that was the major to herd that through the process. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: And stuff, so, no, I didn't -- I didn't do anything during that period.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I didn't know if as part of this public education outreach if there was any brochures or things put out for advertisements or whatever?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: No, it was pretty much on demand. It was on demand. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: And responded to inquiries and requests for appearances and stuff.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. I know you had -- you've thought a lot about this and gone through the list of questions I kind of was proposing. Have we covered everything or there's more things you want to talk about?

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: I -- I think we covered the waterfront pretty well on that. I -- I really -- I've really enjoyed this -- this interview. KAREN BREWSTER: Good. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: It was fun.

KAREN BREWSTER: Good. Well, I want to make sure we covered all the stuff that you wanted to talk about and your memory -- the memories this process has brought up for you. TERRY O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. Let me just look at my notes real quick to see if there's anything.

Yeah, if anybody wants to contact me about timelines and stuff. No, I -- I think that's -- I think that pretty well covers it, Karen KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

TERRY O'SULLIVAN: It's been really nice. I really enjoyed this. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, great. Thank you so much for your time.