KAREN BREWSTER: This Karen Brewster, and today is May 5, 2024, and I’m here with Dick Mackey at his home in Palmer, Alaska. And we’re talking about the history of the Iditarod Trail.

Now you’ve written a very good book that covers the story of your life and uh, career, and your experiences with the Iditarod Race and the Coldfoot camp and all that, so I’m not going to repeat all that of your life story here. And just sort of jump right into the Iditarod Trail itself, if that’s ok with you. DICK MACKEY: It's good.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. So I was thinking the place to start would be the 1967 Centennial Race and Dorothy Page.

DICK MACKEY: Well, my introduction to the Iditarod Trail was through Joe Redington, Sr. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: In 1966, in the fall of 1966, in preparation for the Centennial Race in 1967.

And at that time, I was a comparatively new sprint musher in Anchorage, and Joe would come into Anchorage on occasion to run the races down there. And he asked me if I would be interested or willing to help work on this Iditarod Trail for an upcoming race in 1967.

And at that time, I did a lot of work on the Anchorage Fur Rendezvous Trail, and all the local race trails. And that’s why he approached me.

And I said, "Sure." Now going from Anchorage to Knik was a large undertaking back in those days. And uh, but anyway, I agreed. And on a Saturday afternoon, Joee Redington, his son, and I went out to a place called Nine Mile Hill, out of Knik.

And, you know, when you travel across the United States and you get to a certain point, and they point out, there’s the tracks from the Oregon Trail? Well, you know, I just fell in love with that kind of stuff. (dog making noise in background) KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: And so, here is the trail in a wet area, not -- not a water-holding swamp, but a wet area. And over a period of time, the sleds had made a definite indentation through the country there.

And here’s this trail that people went with sleds and on foot, all the way to Iditarod. And, I mean, I just ate that kind of stuff up. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: And so, I was hooked. And -- and I -- I participated in -- in that race the next year, and -- and, unfortunately, I was working on it until just a couple hours before the race. And -- and that seemed to be the way things went for me. I was always working on the trail rather than perhaps training my dogs the way I should, and so I didn’t do very well. But that’s ok.

Following that race, ten of us got together, and we each put a hundred dollars in the kitty. And a hundred bucks in those days was a lot of money. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: And -- and we formed the Iditarod Trail Blazers, of which I was a life-time member with Joe’s signature on the card. I still have that card in a frame on the bookcase over there.

Uh, (dog barking in background) and then there was -- there was a group called the Iditarod Trail Committee, of which I was not a part of. Uh, and then we were gonna -- the idea was to have a long-distance race, and it just kinda simmered along.

Well, in 1969, they ran that same race again, uh, that we had run in ’67, but I had to work, and so I didn’t go on that one.

And then in November of 1972, Joe Redington called me up at his normal hour of midnight and said, "I just went to a meeting in Anchorage and met a guy that seemed to say that he could raise some money for this long-distance race that we’ve talked about."

"But when I told him we were going to Iditarod, he said, "Well, where’s that?" And he says, "Why don’t you go to Nome? Everybody knows where Nome is." He said, "What do you think?" And I said, "Well, I’ll be the second one to sign up." And he kind of hesitated. He says, "What do you mean?" "Well, aren’t you signed up already?"

And -- and then he informed me that the next day, we had to be to this place in Anchorage to meet with some of these people. And we did.

And that was -- that was the start of my involvement in the organization part of it. There are -- it took a great many people to put that race on when it -- when it happened in 1973. But there was a few of us that I guess devoted our lives to it. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: Joe was one heck of a general, and we were his gen -- we were his -- his -- if he was the general, we were the colonels. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: And everything -- everything was donated back in those days. It was a completely different race than it is today, but that’s another story. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: You still have to take a dog team from one end to the other. (dog making noise in background) KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: So therefore, it’s also the same.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. (dog making noise in background) And it still follows the same route? DICK MACKEY: It still follows the same route.

Now, (dog making noise in background) I was under the impression that that route was surveyed years and years ago, and that those records burned up in the courthouse fire in Juneau years ago. Now I don’t know that as fact, but that’s what I’ve been told. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: But I do know this, that the State of Alaska didn’t know the entirety of where that race went specifically.

In 1981, the spring of ’81, the Alaska Department of Natural Resources awarded Joe Redington and I a contract to find and mark the original, and that was the key word, the original Iditarod Trail from Knik to Rainy Pass Lodge. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: (coughs) Excuse me. And we took that contract thinking, yeah, it’ll be a nice -- nice couple of weeks. It took us six weeks. And it was an amazing adventure.

KAREN BREWSTER: And is that where you were in an airplane? DICK MACKEY: I was -- KAREN BREWSTER: And he was on the ground?

DICK MACKEY: I was in an airplane ninety-nine percent of the time while Joe was on the ground. From the air, you could follow it. Ok.

On the ground, you could be standing, and -- and now here’s another thing. It always went on a compass bearing. They never just wandered around.

And whoever put the trail in, the old-timers that put it in, never went in the open unless they had to. They always were in the tree line, if they -- if they possibly could be.

KAREN BREWSTER: Why would that be, do you know?

DICK MACKEY: Well, because if you were out in the open, it’d blow -- the wind would blow in and -- and obscure the trail. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: Uh, so anyway, we -- and -- and the state had opened entry land. They had homesteads. They had all kinds of stuff.

And I filed and started on a homestead. I sold out eventually at Montana Creek, prior to the Parks Highway. And I know this, that the old homestead was subject to trails easements and whatever. Ok.

Now, I’m going to go back to Nine Mile Hill. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: That was a homestead. And the gentleman that proved up on that homestead ultimately passed away and willed it to his two daughters who were adamant that that trail not go by their house on their property. And they rerouted it a different way.

And Department of Natural Resources, or people from it, had come to my home in -- in Willow on numerous occasions talking about this, and it finally got to the point, uh, ooh, I don’t know, four or five years ago anyway, maybe even longer. Hard -- hard to think about it.

But I had to go, and they had the attorneys, and do a deposition at the Department of Natural Resources on my telling where this trail went. And I believe it to be accurate. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: In the meantime, they, my understanding, had made a route around it and continued on.

Uh, my idea was that you could shut down the Parks Highway. I can still drive to Fairbanks. That’s not the point. The trail goes at a specific place. And ultimately it ended up being that way.

KAREN BREWSTER: ’Cause I was going to ask you, why would it matter if they rerouted it a little bit?

DICK MACKEY: Because that wasn’t the trail. And -- and our deal was, where is the original trail, ok? And I think we followed it.

Now, when we got to Susitna Station, now we have a problem, because there’s all kinds of open-to-entry parcels of land given out. People had put up cabins, or maybe they hadn’t done anything yet.

Well, guess what? That was the trail. You might not like it that it goes within twenty feet of your cabin, but that is the trail.

KAREN BREWSTER: So the trail took precedent? DICK MACKEY: What’s that? KAREN BREWSTER: The trail took precedence over private land ownership?

DICK MACKEY: Well, as far as -- as we were concerned, in locating and marking the trail.

And then, Bomhoff and Associates, which Burt Bomhoff is also an Iditarod finisher, his company was to actually survey the trail behind us. And I suppose, following our deal, it did.

But, and I’ll give an example. Somebody way past, years ago, decided to go to Alexander Lake and -- and build what they may have called a lodge. Ok? I don’t know how that progressed. But you’re going along the Iditarod Trail, and a little ways over here on the lake is a lodge. Well, of course that’s where the trail went to. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: But that wasn’t what our directive was. See, we had to -- we had to find the original Iditarod Trail. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: Today, when you leave Willow starting in the -- the Iditarod -- KAREN BREWSTER: The restart. DICK MACKEY: -- Race, you do not actually hit the Iditarod Trail until thirteen miles past Skwentna. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Well --

DICK MACKEY: At a place, back then on the map, called Skwentna Crossing.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, that would make sense because it came from Seward, and went through, uh, Crow Pass, and then over. It wouldn’t have gone all the way up to Willow. DICK MACKEY: No. No. KAREN BREWSTER: It would’ve come across --

DICK MACKEY: It went -- it went what’s now known as Eagle River. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: Ok. When you get to Eklutna and it'll go across the flats, you can follow it very easily. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah, on the ground. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: From the -- and the vegetation never grew back on it.

KAREN BREWSTER: That’s what’s amazing. That’s what I was like -- DICK MACKEY: It is. KAREN BREWSTER: -- how did you guys -- Like the Nine Mile Hill, which was right at the beginning. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: How did you know where to mark it?

DICK MACKEY: Because there was a wooden block and tackle high up in a birch tree that didn’t use to be high up in a birch tree. It used to be in a tree. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: To help lower the lower -- the heavily loaded sleds down Nine Mile Hill. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And that’s one of the first things Joe pointed out to me. Look at that block and tackle up there. Wow!

KAREN BREWSTER: So they would’ve hooked the sled to it to slow it down? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So the block and tackle was at the top of the hill? DICK MACKEY: Yes. Yes. Yeah. In -- in a high tree now. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: Well, now I say now, I haven’t been there in a long time. KAREN BREWSTER: That was 1966, right? Yeah? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. It was there in 1981. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Um, and a guy lived in Iditarod, and when we started going through Iditarod, Jim Hastings, uh, I used to -- I used to land -- land there, and we became pretty good friends.

And he gave me a map of all the roadhouses in Alaska in 1924. And Jules Mead, that used to own Teeland Store, Jules and Leslie Mead, he became an executive director of Iditarod in future years, bought that map for five hundred dollars to the Iditarod.

He has that map. Well, he’s passed away, but his widow Leslie has that map in his house today. And it showed all the roadhouses on the Iditarod Trail. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh.

DICK MACKEY: It’s an amazing -- it’s an amazing -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: -- piece to see.

KAREN BREWSTER: And now, were any of those roadhouses still visible when you were marking the trail or using the trail?

DICK MACKEY: Yes. You could see the -- Well, you -- you had the one at Knik, of course. And then the next roadhouse where you could see remnants of it was at Skwentna Crossing at Puntilla Lake.

And then the -- the next -- The next roadhouse I find -- I found by chance in running the first race. We left McGrath and went to Ophir. At that time, we ran through the old radar site out of McGrath and came up on top of this hill.

And I looked down in the valley, and I saw smoke. I was running by myself. And I saw where the trail took off to the left, and I went down there, and there’s a guy waving his arms, you missed the trail. You missed the trail.

I said, "No I didn’t. I’m cold and I want to go get a cup of coffee." He says, "Well, we don’t have a café here. But come to my house."

And he says, "Why are you coming through the old radar site? There’s the original trail over the hill. And what’s my bar is what’s left of the old roadhouse here in Takotna." KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

DICK MACKEY: I said, "Next year we’ll be here." And, of course, that became one of the favorite resting places along the trail.

Uh, and -- and then, uh, the next roadhouse that I remember was at Poorman. And that roadhouse, the main -- the main lodge, the roof had caved in, but the lodge was -- the walls were pretty much standing. But on the back of the lodge was the old dog --where they kept the dog teams. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah.

DICK MACKEY: And they had the still, uh, what would you call them, little stalls. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. It’s like a dog barn? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: And -- and, of course, that was -- that was just something to see, I thought.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, well I’ve heard about those old dog barns. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Where people would spend the night and put their dogs up.

DICK MACKEY: Up on the brow of the hill was a steam engine. Like a railroad steam engine. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: And we got to Poorman, and what was his name? Hm. Norman. I can’t remember his last name. Anyway --

KAREN BREWSTER: So he was living out there? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. He was a gold miner. He and his wife living there. And they lived in Anchorage, and then -- had some really nice old homes there.

KAREN BREWSTER: So where is Poorman? I’ve not -- that’s not a current Iditarod stop that I’ve heard of. DICK MACKEY: Well, how’m I going to say this? We went from Ophir to Cripple to Ganes Creek to Poorman. We didn’t go to Cripple back in those days.

KAREN BREWSTER: So it’s between Ophir and Ruby? DICK MACKEY: It’s on the way to Ruby. KAREN BREWSTER: It’s on the way to Ruby? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. That -- that helps. DICK MACKEY: A long ways to Ruby.

KAREN BREWSTER: But it’s somewhere between Ophir and Ruby? DICK MACKEY: Yes. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: And I said to Norm, I said, "How did those engines get up there? That engine -- that steam engine get up there?" He said, "They shipped it."

I don’t know, he said, "I don’t know where it came from in the States, but it came from Seattle to St. Michael."

KAREN BREWSTER: And they barged it up? DICK MACKEY: And they barged it up to Ruby, and then oxen -- KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DICK MACKEY: -- drug it over land. And he said, "Then the people that brought it lived off the oxen."

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, that’s like, I’ve been on the Chilkoot Trail -- DICK MACKEY: Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: And similar, there’s these big huge boiler kind of things that helped run a tramway. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And it’s like, how the heck did they get those huge boilers up there? DICK MACKEY: Same thing. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, same thing. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: I didn’t realize. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. But I’ve -- I've always just -- just taken to stuff like that. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Cathy and I hiked the Chilkoot Trail. Same thing. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Oh man. There’s just --

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, that’s what I was -- I’ve hiked the Chilkoot -- DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- and you see all these pieces of history. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And I wondered whether that was -- any of that was still there in those early -- those first year of the race? DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: What kind of stuff you might have seen along the trail.

DICK MACKEY: You know -- You know, more people walked the Iditarod Trail. Now, but here’s -- here's another thing. If you lived in Fairbanks, and you took the Dunbar Trail, and you took this trail and that trail, and you went to Iditarod, what trail did you go on? KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: You went the Iditarod Trail. If you lived in Nome and you went to Iditarod, you went on the Iditarod Trail. So how do you define the Iditarod Trail?

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, that’s what I was wondering, is how you and Joe marking out that section from Knik to Rainy Pass, how did you know where to go?

DICK MACKEY: Well, we knew from looking at old maps and -- and talking to some old timers that knew where the old roadhouses were. And -- and then --

I’ll give you a good example. Joe and I, one of these stops, we were standing there, just talking. What are we going to do now, you know, type of thing? And I glanced down, and not three feet away, 'Well, that looks like an old window frame or something."

And we got poking around in the brush, and that’s -- what was the top of the window was now maybe just two or three inches off the ground. The whole thing had sunk. And we got looking around. We were standing right beside a cabin. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DICK MACKEY: That -- I mean, why would you go ten feet off the trail, you know? KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: So they built those cabins right here -- right by the trail. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Huh. Interesting. Yeah. DICK MACKEY: It was -- it was very interesting.

KAREN BREWSTER: What time of year did you and Joe do that? DICK MACKEY: Uh, late spring. KAREN BREWSTER: So. DICK MACKEY: Or early spring, however you want to define it. The snow had gone. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok, that was my question. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Is, was -- DICK MACKEY: But the ground was still so you could travel.

KAREN BREWSTER: So how did Joe travel on the ground? DICK MACKEY: With dogs. KAREN BREWSTER: He -- he could still go with dogs? DICK MACKEY: He -- he lived in a tent. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: He lived in a tent, and uh, and then he always -- he always camped. We never -- we didn’t make that many miles a day. And he always camped where I could land. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: ’Cause I was wondering, so he could use his dogs on the bare ground? DICK MACKEY: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And -- and not just enough to haul the supplies. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: I didn’t realize that a dog sled would -- DICK MACKEY: And then, we’d sit there in the evening, you know, and just talk dogs. Talk family. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yep.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so, were you -- was um, Joe brushing out the trail? Or how was he marking it? DICK MACKEY: No. No. No. Uh, we -- we marked it. We marked it by blazes. And --

KAREN BREWSTER: We need to tell people who don’t know what a blaze is. DICK MACKEY: We’d just take an axe and on the side of a -- side of a tree, mark it. KAREN BREWSTER: And cut -- cut out a little bit -- DICK MACKEY: Cut out a -- KAREN BREWSTER: -- of the tree. DICK MACKEY: -- cut out a chunk, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: Uh, and -- And, that’s another thing. You’d see -- you’d see a tree maybe foot and a half in diameter, and lo and behold, it had a blaze on it, but it would all grow in. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DICK MACKEY: You know. And sure enough, that’s a blaze. You -- you -- you had to really look and recognize it as a blaze. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. So were blazes always on the same side of the tree, or did they do, you know, on the trail, a blaze on the right side, the next one’s on the left side, and --? DICK MACKEY: Whoever -- whoever did the blaze was right-handed.

KAREN BREWSTER: So they were always on the right side of the trail? DICK MACKEY: And it depended. You know, you don’t know what the timber was like back in those days. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: You know. Uh, there were a lot of places where -- where there was no -- no timber.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, we have a picture. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. There’s a picture of Joe and I. KAREN BREWSTER: 19 -- oh, right. DICK MACKEY: At the Knik Museum on the trail. KAREN BREWSTER: (reading the caption on the picture) 1981, marking the trail with an official Iditarod Trail sign. DICK MACKEY: Yep. Yep. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: And that -- And that is on the trail. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: Unfortunately, it went right through what came out to be a cemetery. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DICK MACKEY: An old cemetery. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So the trail went through an old cemetery? DICK MACKEY: No. KAREN BREWSTER: No? DICK MACKEY: The -- the -- The cemetery developed where the trail used to be. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So what did you guys do? DICK MACKEY: We went around that. KAREN BREWSTER: You went around. That one you did go around? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. But we didn’t go more than fifty feet. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, so you blazed and marked it, but you didn’t brush out the trail? DICK MACKEY: No, we didn’t brush out the trail. No. Well, I don’t guess we needed to.

KAREN BREWSTER: I mean, how did Joe get through with his dog team? He must’ve brushed out some of it? DICK MACKEY: Oh. KAREN BREWSTER: Or was it visible?

DICK MACKEY: Oh, wait a minute. Maybe I’m getting ahead of myself. The trail was used all the way to Susitna Station. And that had been all brushed out prior to the first I -- KAREN BREWSTER: So the -- DICK MACKEY: ’67 race, ok?

KAREN BREWSTER: Where did the ’67 race go? DICK MACKEY: I can’t remember how many miles on the Iditarod Trail it went, actually, and then it veered off to the right and ended in Big Lake. It was 28 miles in length. KAREN BREWSTER: So it was from Knik?

DICK MACKEY: And who ever heard of a 28-mile race? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I thought it was 25. But 28 miles. DICK MACKEY: 28 miles.

KAREN BREWSTER: So it was from Knik to Big Lake? DICK MACKEY: Knik to Big Lake. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: That’s correct.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so that part of the trail was brushed out? DICK MACKEY: And I can’t -- Yeah. And I can’t remember just how -- how far it was before we turned off. I know it was over Nine Mile Hill. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. ’Cause you and Joee did Nine Mile Hill. DICK MACKEY: That’s correct. KAREN BREWSTER: And you brushed it out? DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And how did you do that? Like, by hand or chainsaws, or what? DICK MACKEY: Well, whatever was needed. Yeah. We -- I mean, we had a chainsaw with us. Yeah. And we -- and we had brush cutters and axe. Yeah. We actually, uh, cleared it out -- It was -- it was visible, but we cleared it out so it was good for racing. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: Ok. Now we get to Susitna Station. And we went from Susitna Station on the Seismograph Trail, in part, to Skwentna.

Following this deal with Joe and I, we went on the Iditarod Trail across Fish Lake, and veered off when we got to Skwentna as an accommodation and deal to Joe, Jr. at Skwentna. And we did that two years in a row.

But that trail was not used by the -- by the snowmachine community. And it never -- and the mushers really had a fit because we went all the way on the Iditarod Trail, veered off to Skwentna, then came back and continued on the Iditarod Trail.

That’s the time when they started going and restarting in Willow. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: Up until that time, it was my -- my job to where we going to start? We ran from Anchorage the first two races. And then I had a problem getting permit from Eklutna the third year. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: And the highway department absolutely said, you may not disrupt traffic on the Matanuska bridges. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: So that’s when we started going to Eagle River and then truckin’ ’em. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: Well, the race had -- had got such a following by then, the third year, that there’s no way the ice is going to hold at Knik. And so, we ran from Settler’s Bay where the lodge is now, before it was built. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: And then we ran wherever we could find snow. One year we ran from Nancy Lake.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and then you ran from Fairbanks one year. DICK MACKEY: Well, those two years, yeah, that was way past my time. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. That's more recently.

DICK MACKEY: Uh, 1978, the year I won. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: We left from Big Lake. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Uh, as long as Joe was alive, we pretty much had to go to Knik. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. He insisted upon that.

Uh, we started several years where the old Wasilla airport was, which is now a park. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Behind the -- the mall. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And across the highway and followed the Knik in the -- in the Knik Road. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: To Knik, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: So, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: But as you say, those were like feeder trails into -- DICK MACKEY: Yep. KAREN BREWSTER: -- the main Iditarod trail. DICK MACKEY: Yep. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Uh, so tell me about Joe Delia at Skwentna. Why did you make an accommodation for him?

DICK MACKEY: Well, Joe Delia was as part of the Iditarod and never had a dog team. But he’s the one that, uh, I can’t think of his partner’s name, either. I’m terrible at names anymore. I used to think I could remember them all, but he --

He made sure the trail was in to the Rohn checkpoint every year. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: From -- from Susitna Station all the way up to Rainy Pass. No, to Rainy Pass Lodge.

We didn’t go through Rainy Pass itself and the Dalzell Gorge until 1977. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: That was the first year. Yeah. And it was also -- That was the first year we went to Nikolai, as well. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, so why did the route change if you were looking for the original trail?

DICK MACKEY: Well, we stayed on the original -- Until we went to Willow. That changed the whole thing. Now we -- now we run the river all the way to Skwentna. Uh.

And those two years was when we went from Susitna Station and stayed on the trail, other than deviating off to Skwentna and then back to the trail again.

And then, once we left Rohn checkpoint, it was convenient to go to the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) station at Farewell. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Then from Farewell, we went over to Salmon River to cabin (the BLM Bear Creek Cabin?), and those people from Nikolai came over there for their spring beaver trapping. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: And that became an unofficial checkpoint. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: And then to Big River, and then into McGrath.

Following the fire in the Farewell Burn -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: -- we went -- And then we -- All of a sudden, then we went on the Iditarod Trail. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DICK MACKEY: Left Rohn and did not go to Farewell. Went over to Stan Frost had a cabin on Farewell Lake, and this old Sullivan Roadhouse and then on to Nikolai, and then into McGrath. Yeah. So that was the only major change, was from Rohn -- KAREN BREWSTER: Because of the fire? DICK MACKEY: Because of the fire.

The fire brought us to the Iditarod Trail. Yeah, and bypassed the Farewell FAA. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Which ultimately was closed anyway. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So according to this, Joe Delia’s wife was Norma. DICK MACKEY: That’s right. Yes. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Yep.

KAREN BREWSTER: And they lived out there and ran a trapline and knew the trails? DICK MACKEY: Yeah, and Frank -- KAREN BREWSTER: Uh. DICK MACKEY: I can’t think of his name. Joe Delia and Frank. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, there’s, let’s see. Uh, Frank -- DICK MACKEY: Huh. KAREN BREWSTER: No, Carl Fritzler. DICK MACKEY: Carl Fritzler --

KAREN BREWSTER: Frank Harvey. DICK MACKEY: Huh? KAREN BREWSTER: Frank Harvey? DICK MACKEY: Frank Harvey, yes. Frank Harvey. Yep. Yep.

KAREN BREWSTER: And they lived out there and --? DICK MACKEY: He lived at a place called Donkey Lake. Past Skwentna. KAREN BREWSTER: Frank Harvey did? DICK MACKEY: Yep. Yep. KAREN BREWSTER: And then -- DICK MACKEY: And they’ve both passed away, of course.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah. The Delias lived at Skwentna? DICK MACKEY: Yep. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. So they were responsible for their section of trail?

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. They put the trail -- they put the trail in from Susitna Station through Skwentna, across Ptarmigan Pass, down the river to Rohn.

And then in 1977 -- 1976, they came backwards from Rohn through Rainy Pass to Puntilla Lake. That’s the first time they’d been through there.

See, that’s the way -- Rainy Pass and Dalzell Gorge -- back in the old days, they never went through the gorge like we did today. It was built up on the side of the mountain. And prior to the 1964 Earthquake, you could see parts of it. But the ’64 Earthquake shook those old logs down. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And it just absolutely destroyed it. And it was easier, perhaps, to put the trail in through the gorge now.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. So yeah, in those places like that, the trail was -- the original Iditarod Trail got damaged by the earthquake, so you had to put in a new trail. DICK MACKEY: That’s correct. KAREN BREWSTER: And how do you decide where -- how --

DICK MACKEY: Well, there was only one place to go. If you were -- if you were not going to build it up. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. DICK MACKEY: And -- and log it up, and put it in, the only place you could go was at the bottom of the ravine. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Where the -- where the -- where the -- I don’t know, it’s not a river, maybe, but you’d think it was.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah. So the terrain kind of told you where to --? DICK MACKEY: The terrain determined where you were gonna go. And over the years, in -- there was only two or three of us in 1977 that made it to Rohn without broken sleds. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: And it’s been improved over the years. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I don’t know -- DICK MACKEY: Lately.

KAREN BREWSTER: I don’t know how anybody gets through that section without -- DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- breaking a sled or a body part or something. DICK MACKEY: Yeah, well, you never train your dogs to go slow, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I know. It’s a crazy thing. Um, but so, on that Nine Mile Hill section, that was sort of the first --? DICK MACKEY: Nine Mile Hill got a reputation. It wasn’t more than 150 feet long. But it was just puh (sound effect) steep. KAREN BREWSTER: Steep. Right.

DICK MACKEY: And -- and for a heavily laden freight sled, uh, it would’ve been a challenge. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: And that’s why that block and tackle was there.

KAREN BREWSTER: But that -- that was the first time that people went out and marked the trail, or --? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Or brushed it out?

DICK MACKEY: And -- and his -- My directive the very -- in 1973, was to make sure the trail was in to Susitna Station and marked, ok? KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: None of us had any comprehension of what a dog team would do after a couple of days. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh.

DICK MACKEY: There was one place where a group of us -- Oh, there was Ron Aldridge and Dave Olson and uh, half a dozen of us. We actually built a bridge across the gully. Oh, it must -- Probably was thirty feet long. ’Cause we didn’t realize we could feed the team down over that and back up again. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Huh. And Bob Bacon, who was a residen -- old-time residence of Flathorn Lake, after the first race, got a hold of me, and he said, "Why on earth did you run that old Seismograph Trail? Why didn’t you follow my trapline? That’s the original trail. I’ll pull my traps next year." KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DICK MACKEY: See? And so, the second year of running, we did in fact run that mile-long or whatever of the old original trail. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So with that Seismograph Trail, that’s not -- I read that Joe Redington got some Army guys. DICK MACKEY: Got what? KAREN BREWSTER: There was an Army, um -- Let me see. DICK MACKEY: Well, the first year, yeah, the first year. (phone rings) KAREN BREWSTER: ’71, 72. (phone rings) Uh, that’s your telephone. (break in recording)

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Let’s -- let's go back. KAREN BREWSTER: So, in 1971 or ’72, Joe Redington met with the Army, and somehow arranged that they would use snowmachines as a training exercise.

DICK MACKEY: All right. Prior to that, Fort Rich (Richardson), I forget who now, got ahold of me. And they had a -- a skis deal up at Arctic Valley out of Anchorage. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: Ok. And said, "What would you say is an average dog team?" And I said, "Oh, depends what you’re racing." But I said, "Seven-dog team take you any way you want to go." He said, "All right. Would you be willing to take a seven-dog team from Arctic Valley back to the provost office there at Fort Rich? And we’re going to test two Alpine snowmachines and see how they do." Well, I beat ’em. Because they floundered. Ok?

KAREN BREWSTER: Was there a trail? DICK MACKEY: Huh? KAREN BREWSTER: Was there -- DICK MACKEY: No. KAREN BREWSTER: No? DICK MACKEY: No, we just took off, cross country. KAREN BREWSTER: You were -- you were breaking trail?

DICK MACKEY: Now, the idea was, they were going to test alpine snowmachines for the Army and go to Nome. So Joe Redington met with General Getty (Army Major General Charles M. Gettys was Fort Richardson's commander at the time), who was a great promotor of dog racing. We used to race on base all the time.

And convinced him that on their way to Nome, they would use survey tape and mark the trail as they went. And they were attempting to follow old-time maps of the Iditarod Trail. Ok.

Of course, the wind would blow them off, and we spent more time looking for the trail after it blew in. Uh, you’d -- you'd come onto a -- you'd come onto a swamp, and you’d think the trail was straight ahead. No, it’d make a ninety-degree turn or something. And no marking.

So anyway, Happy River, there was no such thing the first couple years as the Steps. You just crashed into each other. And we went up the Happy River, actually up the river. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DICK MACKEY: On shelf ice with this rushing river down six feet below you, and there you are on a ledge of ice, waiting it to give way.

And they went up there with snowmachines, and we made it with dog teams. But -- And then, Don -- Oh, the guy that used to fly out of Talkeetna up to McKinley all the time, Don. KAREN BREWSTER: Sheldon?

DICK MACKEY: Don Sheldon. All of a sudden, he’s up there looking down off this cliff, and he says, "What are you guys all doing down there?" He said, "The old trail’s up here." Yeah. So the next year, we went up there.

KAREN BREWSTER: And he could see it ’cause he’d seen it from the air? DICK MACKEY: He could see it from the air, that’s right. So any -- and those -- those snowmachiners, they went through thirty-three snowmachines, and one made it to Nome. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DICK MACKEY: And you mentioned Carl Fritzler earlier. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: He was one of five or six guys that went ahead on our behalf. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh? DICK MACKEY: To try to go to Nome.

KAREN BREWSTER: So he tried to do it by dogteam before the race? DICK MACKEY: No, he went -- they went on snowmachines. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, Carl Fritzler went on a snowmachine. DICK MACKEY: Yeah, they went on snowmachines. And -- and they cannibalized all the different snowmachines, and he’s the only one that made it there.

KAREN BREWSTER: That -- so the Army just left machines along the way? DICK MACKEY: They must’ve got ’em out somehow. I don't -- Not my deal. I got no idea.

KAREN BREWSTER: No. Well, no, because you said Carl cannibalized. So did he cannibalize ones that had been left along the way? DICK MACKEY: Yeah, just to keep another one going. Yeah. I would assume, they did ’em at villages, you know. (laughing)

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. But, uh, yeah, so do you know how Joe knew the Army was going to do that? DICK MACKEY: Yes, they agreed to do that.

KAREN BREWSTER: No, but Joe somehow knew that they were going to Nome with snowmachines and had -- DICK MACKEY: Yes, he did. KAREN BREWSTER: And had the idea to take advantage of that.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Like I say, General Getty was --was very -- a real promotor of -- Well, and the Army had its own dog team. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, they did? DICK MACKEY: Joee Redington won the Anchorage Fur Rendezvous in 1965 driving the Army dog team. KAREN BREWSTER: Huh.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And -- and then -- and then the Air Force got one also. And, oh, I can’t think of his name, that -- They were kind of an afterthought, I think.

KAREN BREWSTER: Huh, I didn’t realize that they had their own teams.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. And actually, Earl Norris come put a stop to that. He said, "Why is federal tax dollars competing against us?" Yeah. He didn’t like that. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: He wanted to win. He didn’t want them to win, right? DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, because that seemed like a pretty good deal to have the snowmachines breaking the trail. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Kinda. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: It didn’t work out so well? DICK MACKEY: No, it didn’t. No. Uh, I lived over on Pittman Road at the time, north of Wasilla. And I’d go over to Joe’s, and I went over there on a Saturday morning. We had planned on going out the trail. And all of a sudden, here’s a whole bunch of Army trucks. And these guys were unloading those Alpines. And they all lined up, and -- and Captain Lockhart was in charge of it.

And next thing you know, here come a helicopter, and General Getty gets out, and they all line up and salute and have a fit, and then they took off.

So we waited until after lunch and well, we’ll go for a run then. And we didn’t go ten miles, and they had bivouacked for the night. Yeah. It got to be a joke, watching helicopters fly snowmachines back and forth, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, that’s how they rescu -- that’s how they pulled out the old machines. DICK MACKEY: Oh yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Was with helicopters. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. It was pretty good. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. So -- DICK MACKEY: But we certainly welcomed the part where it did work, yep.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so, how long did it take them? Get -- How long did it take the one machine to get to Nome? DICK MACKEY: The day before the mushers got there. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: So they were that --? DICK MACKEY: It took them a month. KAREN BREWSTER: A month. DICK MACKEY: Took us three weeks. Twenty days.

KAREN BREWSTER: For the first one, was twenty days? DICK MACKEY: Yeah, of course, those of us that did this back in those days, you know. Think the ones that do it now. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: It’s a different -- totally different thing. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: And -- and half of them, I know -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: -- could not last three weeks out there. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yep.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, and also, 1973 when you first ran it, the trail was not as well known and marked as it is now. DICK MACKEY: It was awful. KAREN BREWSTER: It was awful? DICK MACKEY: It was awful.

KAREN BREWSTER: Why -- how was it awful? DICK MACKEY: It truly was. It was -- it was soft, it was blown in. No -- And if it blew in, too bad, put on snowshoes. Uh, and -- and -- and that’s just the way it was.

And here’s another thing. We cooked dog food. You -- you -- you never ran at night. You -- you come, oh, five, six o’clock or whatever, usually about five o’clock, you found a decent place. Well, if you found a decent place to camp, here’s six or eight other teams along there, and so, you all were looking for wood.

And you had big galvanized tub and cooked for -- you had to melt snow (dog noise in background) and cook for your dogs. All right. Well, the next year, you stopped at the same place. Well, you gonna go a little bit further for some firewood. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: And after a little bit, well, now there is no wood. So you pick a different place. And so, that’s what forced you to change how you did things.

You know. The first -- the first year, Ralston Purina donated twenty tons of Purina High-Pro dog food, which was the best you could get. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. DICK MACKEY: Spader’s Feed and Seed in Anchorage was three hundred dollars a ton.

KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DICK MACKEY: Pfft (sound effect). Yeah. Came in a fifty-pound sack, too. Ok. Today, they have some good dog food. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: And it cost you seventy, eighty dollars for a forty-pound bag.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. (laughing) But -- And by the third year, we were using Coleman stoves. Well, next thing you know, you got, instead of a big burner and a little burner, you got two big burners. Well, now you got two tanks of -- of oil -- of fuel feeding them. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: And it just kept developing. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Uh, we had real tarps. I mean heavy tarps. KAREN BREWSTER: Like those canvas tarps? DICK MACKEY: I had the first sled bag, first sled bag there was. Lolly Medley made it for me. Had a fit. "Why do you need that?" You know, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. ’Cause the traditional way is, you just throw a tarp over everything. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, and so, Dorothy Page’s idea of that 1967 race was for history. She was interested in the history, right? DICK MACKEY: Yes. Yes.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so, how did that connection get made with the race and the history? DICK MACKEY: Dorothy Page is the one that suggested to Joe Redington that they have that Centennial race on the Iditarod Trail. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh.

DICK MACKEY: Ok. The rest of it, from there on, just everybody followed suit. Like I say, there was -- there was -- It took a lot of people to put it on. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: A lot of people. Hundreds of people. But there was a half a dozen of us in the -- in the Wasilla-Anchorage area, that we kind of devoted our lives to it. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: Now, the other end -- the other end was more the organization for, uh, a headquarter type thing on the other end of the race. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. DICK MACKEY: It didn’t have that much to do with the trail. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Ok. Uh.

KAREN BREWSTER: I mean, the Nome Trail Blazers did go out and mark the trail for the race, didn’t they?

DICK MACKEY: No. The -- the guys, as an example. Now you didn’t have to mark the trail on the Yukon River. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: It was utilized. Ok? Between villages.

Now, from Kaltag to Unalakleet, with the Old Woman Point in between. The Old Woman Point was a point where the Iditarod Trail and the trail from Anvik on the Yukon River came up there and met. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: All right, now. The guys from Kaltag would go to Old Woman. I’m not going any further. I’m not going over into that Eskimo country. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DICK MACKEY: The guys from -- from Unalakleet would go to Old Woman. I’m not going over there to Kaltag and that Indian country.

The second year of the race, I was the first one to Kaltag. I left Kaltag, and, "This isn’t where we went last year." And I ended up way up on the side of a hill. And I -- and -- and it’s dark, and I think, "Oh, I’ve missed the trail somewhere."

And all of a sudden, here come an airplane I see in the distance, you could tell he was flying the trail. And he came right up over me, so I knew I was on the trail.

What happened. Clarence Towarak from Unalakleet decided they’d go all the way to Kaltag, and put the trail in. But they wouldn’t go into the village. They went to the airstrip and turned around.

Well, they knew about where they were, and they went up on this side hill to see where they were. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DICK MACKEY: And then they followed the same trail back again.

And so, the first year, we get to Unalakleet. George Attla says, "I don’t like this country." He says, "There’s no trees."

Herbie Nayokpuk says, "I’m sure we'll be glad out of that country where it was all trees. The dogs didn’t like it." (laughing)

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. ’Cause George was from Huslia. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. (coughs) KAREN BREWSTER: And Herbie’s from Shishmaref. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yep. Um, so that trail that you got in on the up the hill, was that like a dead end? That was just their --? DICK MACKEY: No. No. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, it --

DICK MACKEY: They just went up there to get a view and see where they were and see where the lights were of -- of -- of Kaltag. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok, Kaltag? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So that connected you -- That was the right --? DICK MACKEY: And so, they just -- so they just came back down and went into town. And when they left, they just stayed on the same -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DICK MACKEY: -- same trail. Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s funny. DICK MACKEY: Yep.

KAREN BREWSTER: But, yeah, that -- ’Cause yeah, I was going to ask that you guys put the trail in from Knik to Skwentna, and then, you know, out to Rohn, and (Joe) Delia did it out to Rohn, but there’s still, you know, five hundred miles of -- DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- trail. DICK MACKEY: Yep, and --

KAREN BREWSTER: And how did you -- who did that part? DICK MACKEY: Now -- Now when, for instance at Shaktoolik, they got the trail to mark going back towards, uh, towards Unalakleet, and then they got the trail going across the ice going to Koyuk. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: In the winter time, they always stuck to the ice. Right? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: But there was a land trail. One year, we almost took it to Ungalik and -- from Shaktoolik, because of the -- the way the -- the -- KAREN BREWSTER: The ice was -- DICK MACKEY: The sea ice was, yeah.

Uh, but the State of Alaska paid those guys so much a mile to mark the trail with spruce saplings. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: That was on the over-the-ice trail? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: ’Cause I was gonna say, yeah, that you guys from this end, you know, were marking the trail and -- and blazing it, you know, up to maybe Ruby. And then, yeah, what happened? So the Yukon, you didn’t have to mark. And then the Kaltag one. And then?

DICK MACKEY: See, Golovin used to be a checkpoint, eighteen miles before you get to White Mountain. I can’t remember the guy’s name now, but he and two other guys put the trail in. Marked the trail and put the trail in from Golovin to White Mountain to Nome.

The second year of the race, when Tim White, the first out-of-state musher, from Minnesota, got seven miles from Nome, that same guy that put the trail in ran into the back of him at night. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-oh.

DICK MACKEY: With a snowmachine, yeah. And put him in the hospital. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DICK MACKEY: And I drove him back to Minnesota.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I was thinking, who would’ve been the guy in Golovin? Um. DICK MACKEY: I can’t think of his last name. No.

KAREN BREWSTER: Uh, I’m trying to think who I know from Golovin. But anyway, um, so the historic trail designation -- the official designation of it as a historic trail. DICK MACKEY: Yep. KAREN BREWSTER: Was in 1978. DICK MACKEY: Yes.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, and so, that covers all of this route that we’ve just been talking about?

DICK MACKEY: See, by 19 -- by 1978, the trail is the same as the northern route today. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: And it covers all of --

DICK MACKEY: That doesn’t -- that doesn't mean we utilize it all. I mean, comes all the way from Seward. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: We never did use that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: And then -- and then it went from Knik, and we don’t use that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: See. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right, but the historic trail designation goes all the way to Nome. It includes all that part on the sea ice, and on the Yukon and --? DICK MACKEY: You know, now, I don’t know that.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Uh, I know that it goes to Ophir. Now, does it go to Iditarod? KAREN BREWSTER: I don’t know. DICK MACKEY: See, I don’t know, either. Uh --

KAREN BREWSTER: Or Flat? Or Ophir? Somewhere. It must -- it must -- DICK MACKEY: Well -- well, Flat's -- No, Flat’s a different deal from -- KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: -- going to Iditarod.

KAREN BREWSTER: It must go to at least to Iditarod because, as you say, it was the Iditarod Trail. So it goes from Seward to Iditarod.

DICK MACKEY: Well, that’s what I say. I thought that that was surveyed, actually surveyed all the way to Iditarod. Because after that, in the Nome part, I mean, it’s an established trail now. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: But -- but I don’t know if -- I don’t know what the official designation is. Uh.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. It may have been -- you know, as you say, there were all these little feeder trails. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: And it’s now become one -- DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- trail. And, because historically, people traveled by dog team between villages and traplines, and then the airplane came along.

DICK MACKEY: Well, you got the Parks Highway. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: It didn’t use to be the Parks Highway. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And then the airplane, you know. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Walking or dog team was the only way to go. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. I drove -- I drove from -- from Fairbanks to Nenana when you couldn’t go across the river except on the river bridge. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: Well, I don’t know what they -- they called it the Nenana Highway, I guess. KAREN BREWSTER: I don’t know. Probably. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Now it’s the Parks Highway. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: So -- so I don’t -- I don't know that part of it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. But um, as I say, Dorothy Page was into the history with that original race, but Joe wanted to bring dog mushing back, right? Is that how --?

DICK MACKEY: That’s correct. There was a team came into the Fur Rendezvous, and I don’t need to -- never mind his name. I know -- I know who he is. He came from Kiana. Came into the Fur Rendezvous, and he traded his dog team for a snowmachine. And this was happening all over. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: Now, if we wanted a good dog, where did we go to get him? KAREN BREWSTER: Villages. DICK MACKEY: We got him from a village. And why did we get him from a village? Because it was breeding that had gone on for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: Ok. I’d like to think that we had a higher purpose than worrying about getting the dogs from the village, because every village had a dog team. Three dogs, five dogs, whatever. They didn’t have teams like we had, ok. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: Or a lot of us had. Because they had to haul the wood. They had to haul the water. They also had to fish for ’em. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: Ok. Snowmachine, you turn the key. Didn’t have to fish. Yeah. Buy white man’s gas. Give me a break. That’s what it was. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: And (dog noise in the background) so our intent -- and I’ll say Joe’s intent, but those of us that felt the same way. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: (dog noise in the background) Our intent was to put on a dog race that went through as many villages as possible to say, "Go ahead. We know snowmachines are going take over, but don’t get rid of your dogs." You know, a snowmachine’ll leave you out there and freeze to death. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: Which happened. Ok. Dog team’ll get you home. And we can have both. And today we have both. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: And that was the whole intent. And I think it was very successful. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: In 1973, there was not a dog team in Nome. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, really? DICK MACKEY: Howard Farley had dogs that he showed tourists. That Wien Airlines brought up there. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: Ok. Uh, and Howard and Julie were dear friends of mine. He and I fished together. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. Right. DICK MACKEY: Ok. Lived at his home. Uh, and, of course, now they’re both gone, recently. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. DICK MACKEY: Uh, I don’t know why I’m still here, but I am. Uh, but what I --

KAREN BREWSTER: So there were no dog teams in Nome, so the -- DICK MACKEY: Now you can put on a race up there, there’s that many dog teams. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, really? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: So -- DICK MACKEY: So -- so it’s been very successful, I think. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Now, do you think that getting the trail designated as a historic trail, did that make a difference? DICK MACKEY: No. If it comes right down to it. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: If you’re going to have a dog team, you’re going to have a dog team. Just because there’s a -- there's a designated trail, but the point is, it’s a greenbelt across Alaska. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: That’s what’s important, you know.

I’m one of those guys, I’m sorry, but I don’t much care what happens in the Lower 48. I’m completely one hundred percent interested what happens in Alaska. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: And I get very upset with some of the thoughts today. (laughing)

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, but um, so the his -- So, you’re saying that the dog racing would’ve happened whether the trail was historically designated? DICK MACKEY: The dog race has been going on long before that. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s true. The trail didn’t get -- DICK MACKEY: You know. KAREN BREWSTER: -- designated 'til ’78. DICK MACKEY: No. No.

Uh, I grew up -- I grew up twenty miles from dog racing. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: You know. They called it a world championship. We called it a world championship. You know, whatever. No, I think -- KAREN BREWSTER: ’Cause I don’t --

DICK MACKEY: I’m -- I'm concerned about dog racing today because of the -- I think it’s a -- it's an old style doing stuff. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. DICK MACKEY: And young people today don’t like old style doing stuff. You know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I -- I like what you said, that the trail is a greenbelt across Alaska. DICK MACKEY: I think that’s the main thing. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And -- and I think it’s something that we as Alaskans should be proud of. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: There’s a -- there's a certain spot that’s never going to lose that designation. They’re not going to build on it. They’re not going to develop it. And I think that’s important.

Uh, I happen to be one of those type of people, uh, build it. If -- if we need it, if we can use it, build it. But I also think it should be done properly. And -- and having a greenbelt across Alaska, I think is a big deal. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Yeah, ’cause I know it was a big deal for Joe Redington. He did a lot of lobbying to Senators Gravel and Stevens to get that designation. DICK MACKEY: Yeah, revis -- Gravel, you bet. They worked hard. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did -- did you help with any of that? DICK MACKEY: Yes, I did. And uh, I -- I was one of those that, along with a few others, that just kind of donated their life to it. KAREN BREWSTER: Yes. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah.

Some of it, I regret. Yeah. Uh. KAREN BREWSTER: In what way? DICK MACKEY: Well, I -- I was -- I was twenty-four hours a day Iditarod. Wasn’t very good for family atmosphere. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Or kids' atmosphere. Yeah. And I know that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Now. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: I didn’t at the time. KAREN BREWSTER: Well. DICK MACKEY: I didn’t at the time.

And financially, it about broke me. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: You said a lot of it was out of your own pocket. DICK MACKEY: It was all out of your own pocket, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, did you and Joe get paid for that DNR contract? DICK MACKEY: We got paid for that, yes. KAREN BREWSTER: Do you know how much you got paid? DICK MACKEY: Twenty-five thousand dollars. KAREN BREWSTER: Between the two of you? DICK MACKEY: Between the two of us. Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then that had to pay for your airplane gas, too, right? DICK MACKEY: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But that, yeah. It -- it -- We never made money, that’s for sure. No.

KAREN BREWSTER: It’s definitely -- well, and that’s what I say, I know Joe lobbied a lot. And so, did you -- did you go to Washington, D.C., with --? DICK MACKEY: Oh, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. That -- that was a big deal for me. I was not one of the three teams. And I went with the -- with the Flying Tigers, the cargo 747 that flew the teams down there. Ok?

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, you guys took teams down to D.C.? DICK MACKEY: We took -- we took three teams down, representing the state of Alaska for Ronald Reagan’s inauguration parade. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, that’s right.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And uh -- and so, uh, I happened to go with the dogs. And the -- the captain of the 747 was in his last year of retirement and flew with Claire Chennault’s Flying Tigers in Burma prior to the second World War. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And at that time, I had a 180 (airplane), and, of course, we were talking about it. When the copilot went upstairs, he says, "I'm -- I’m going up deck and make lunch. Do you mind if Dick sets in my seat?"

And so, I got out of the jump seat, sat in the right seat. He said, "This is no different than your 180, just a lot bigger and heavier. Get a feel for it." KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DICK MACKEY: And took it off of autopilot. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow, cool.

DICK MACKEY: And I thought that was the greatest thing that ever was. Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. But so, besides that taking the dogs for the inauguration, did you go to D.C. and lobby Gravel and -- DICK MACKEY: No, it was all done here in Alaska. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, it was. Ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. All of it. Yeah. You know, Redington, none of us ever went to D.C. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. Yeah, I just assumed -- DICK MACKEY: No. No. No. KAREN BREWSTER: -- he must’ve gone there to -- DICK MACKEY: No, it was all done here. Yeah. It uh --

KAREN BREWSTER: And what kind of things did you guys do? DICK MACKEY: Well, it -- it was just a matter of meetings. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: Uh, and uh, let’s see, Don Young. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. DICK MACKEY: Ok, he -- he was a big promoter. That’s where I first met him. He was a school teacher in Fort Yukon and used to bring the kids to the junior races in Fairbanks. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: And I brought my older kids up to Fairbanks to the junior races, and that’s where Don and I first met. And we became friends, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So do you remember any of the arguments or -- or any of the issues you guys tried to sell to these guys to promote it? DICK MACKEY: You know, there -- you know, there never was an argument about getting it. I guess the wheels in Washington turn slow.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. I guess, yeah. How did you persuade them that this was -- needed to happen? DICK MACKEY: Well, because they had -- there were other trails that came under that same designation. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. In the Lower 48? Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And I think there were two other trails. I think the Iditarod Trail was one of three. And -- and so, it was just kind of like a rider or whatever that went along with it. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. DICK MACKEY: Yeah, I don’t know all the details.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I was going to say, you had to help persuade Senators Gravel, Stevens, and Representative Young to support this legislation. DICK MACKEY: It wasn’t difficult. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: It wasn’t difficult.

And when we pulled off the race to Nome, it really wasn’t difficult. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. I mean, ’cause it was a big deal. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: It really -- KAREN BREWSTER: It was -- DICK MACKEY: It - it -- it was a big deal.

The -- the old mayor of Nome, (Robert) Renshaw was his name, Mayor Renshaw, and he was the perfect Nome mayor, with a handlebar mustache and -- and his black hair. And he would meet every musher, day or night. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: The siren would blow, and if you came in at night, he was wearing his nightshirt. And -- and he would declare you a hero. And, of course, we all knew we were. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. You were.

DICK MACKEY: It didn’t -- it didn't make any difference what position you came in. I mean, you -- you drove a dog team all the way from Anchorage to Nome. We were a hero. KAREN BREWSTER: You were heroes.

DICK MACKEY: And -- and after twenty, twenty-one days on the trail, you damn sure knew you were a hero. KAREN BREWSTER: Yes.

So what was Dorothy Page like as a person? DICK MACKEY: Dorothy Page was extremely opinionated. Yep. KAREN BREWSTER: In a good way or not?

DICK MACKEY: You’d better stay in her good graces. Yeah. And -- and, but she was really into it. She really was. And there again, it all came out of her pocket, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s just the way it was. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: The -- the passion for it.

DICK MACKEY: There was -- there were some ten thousand dollar donations that first year. Muktuk Marston, what was his name that owned the hotel? Oh god, I can’t think of it. He donated ten grand. We never paid him back. He -- he did his own deal. KAREN BREWSTER: Hickel? (former Alaska governor, Walter Hickel) DICK MACKEY: And raised it himself. KAREN BREWSTER: Hickel? DICK MACKEY: No, no. KAREN BREWSTER: No? DICK MACKEY: No. No. No.

KAREN BREWSTER: Not Sheffield? (former Alaska governor, William Sheffield) DICK MACKEY: He owned the Mush Inn Motel. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking, was Hickel. DICK MACKEY: Which -- which at one time was a pretty nice hotel. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: I don’t know. No, it wasn’t Sheffield, ’cause he owned hotels later. DICK MACKEY: No. No. Yeah. Bill -- Bill Sheffield was running for governor when I was president of Iditarod, and uh, that paid off in the future. Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So that first Iditarod Trail Blazers group that you guys formed. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: What did you guys do as an organization? DICK MACKEY: Nothing except talk about having a long-distance race. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. Uh.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you guys didn’t go out and mark the trail? DICK MACKEY: No.

KAREN BREWSTER: But you helped organize the first race? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Dan Seavey. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Ran -- ran the first race. And I don’t know if he still is or not, but I know for years, he was part of the Iditarod -- official Iditarod committee. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, the -- he -- DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And I was at one time, and then no --

KAREN BREWSTER: He’s part of the Trail Alliance group. DICK MACKEY: Oh. Oh. Ok. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: And -- and he really worked hard on the Seward end of it. KAREN BREWSTER: Yes. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And he’s been interviewed. DICK MACKEY: Oh. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So I’ve got the Seward end of the story, and that’s what -- I’ve heard there’s a Seward Trail Blazers. I’ve heard about the Nome Trail Blazers. I’ve heard maybe there was a Knik Trail Blazers? DICK MACKEY: I’ll show you.

KAREN BREWSTER: So these are your membership cards, right? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Lifetime membership Iditarod Trail Blazers, with your name and Joe Redington’s signature. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: (reading from the card) Dog Drivers of Alaska. DICK MACKEY: That’s Fairbanks.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. And (reading from the card) Iditarod Trail Sled Dog Race, life member, and your number. Fifty dash zero zero six two (50-0062). Does that mean you were the 62nd member? I don’t know? DICK MACKEY: I don’t know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. But so, is there, or was there a Knik Trail Blazers? After your Iditarod Trail Blazers? DICK MACKEY: After what now?

KAREN BREWSTER: Was there a Knik Trail Blazers? Or it was just that -- DICK MACKEY: Well, if there was, it didn’t have anything to do with the Iditarod. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. There -- there’s a Knik, yeah, just like there’s an Aurora and a Willow and an Anchorage, and yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So they do all kinds of trails? They don’t do just the Iditarod? DICK MACKEY: Right, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So a trail blazers organization, what do they do? DICK MACKEY: Spend money. KAREN BREWSTER: No, I --

DICK MACKEY: No. Actually, we -- we -- all we did was just talk about promoting this. There was an Iditarod Committee. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Ok. Which was a whole different deal. Yeah. It had nothing to do with these -- with these men.

KAREN BREWSTER: The trail blazers didn’t go out and brush out the trail and mark it or maintain it? DICK MACKEY: I don’t remember doing that as a trail blazer, no.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Yeah, I was wondering if part of their responsibility is to maintain the trail. DICK MACKEY: No. No. No. No. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: I just know what, my -- and -- and I had a lot of help working on the trail. And I’d fly guys out and drop ’em off and go pick ’em up again. And oh my god, I got into some hairy stuff. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Like what?

DICK MACKEY: I remember one time, I -- I brought some guys in that had been working out on the trail, and -- and I got in a snowstorm, and oh man. I finally landed at Wasilla, and I went into the -- that’s when we had just got an office upstairs over the old Teeland Store, and Cathy was -- worked at the office up there.

And I came in there, and I says, "Boy, I’m sure lucky." We just made it. And it was tight. And I says, "I’m going over to the Kashim and have a beer."

Well, Jules Mead, he piped up, he says, "Well, I’ll go with you." And Cathy says, "I’ll go with you." And somebody else said, "I’ll go with you." And well, we had breakfast the next morning. (laughs) Yeah. But there was -- there was a few days like that to -- Yeah.

Raymie Redington, he -- he likes to tell about the time that Joe and I were out doing that trail deal for the -- for the state, and he says, "Yeah, I remember one time," he says, "when all you did was clip off the tops of little spruce trees with your wings." That was some hairy flying. (laughs) KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DICK MACKEY: I went into Rohn one time and barely made it out of there. Oh, boy. Yeah. Just kept pew-pew (sound effect), hitting -- hitting the tops of the trees. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So how did you and Joe communicate on that? If you were in the plane, and he was on the ground. DICK MACKEY: He -- he had a CB radio. KAREN BREWSTER: A radio -- ground-to-air radio? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. I assumed that, but --

DICK MACKEY: And -- and it -- I might be in the air thirty minutes, and then we were on the ground for hours. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. DICK MACKEY: You know.

And it was so funny. I could say, "Joe, you’re standing in the trail right now. Can you see an old blaze mark?" You know. And, of course, I’d -- I'd circle around, and I’d come right over him, and I ain’t fifty feet off the trees, and -- and I’m following the trail, and come up again, and then I’d land. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: You know.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then you’d go out and help -- DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- blaze and --? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was -- it was fun.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it sounds like it. DICK MACKEY: Not only fun, but it was so interesting to be a part of it. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: How many miles a day, typically? DICK MACKEY: Well, it took us six weeks. KAREN BREWSTER: For how many miles total? DICK MACKEY: One hundred miles. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: About. Ok.

DICK MACKEY: And -- and, of course, some of it was -- was very obvious, you know. Yeah. Some of it was very obvious. Been running it for years. KAREN BREWSTER: Right, you’d already been using this -- DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- this end of it? Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: And as you -- I’m surprised that --

DICK MACKEY: The -- the tough part was from Susitna Sta -- well no, that’s not exactly true. Yeah. It was. From Susitna Station to Skwentna Crossing. That was the tough part. KAREN BREWSTER: Why?

DICK MACKEY: Well, because it -- it -- that was the old, old, old trail back in, you know, whenever.

KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. It just hadn’t been used as much recently? DICK MACKEY: It hadn’t been used at all.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, yeah, I mean, since the old, old, old. DICK MACKEY: There was no need to use it, since -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: I mean, when did the Iditarod Trail as we know it stop getting used? I don’t know, I mean. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I can’t remember the exact dates. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: But when airplanes started. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Kind of the 1920s. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: But that -- that map, uh -- Leslie Mead lives off of Donovan Street at just a little ways past Clapp Road on KGB (Knik-Goose Bay Road). Uh, I don’t know -- KAREN BREWSTER: Well, did you -- did you -- DICK MACKEY: -- you could take a picture of that map or something. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Boy, it’s -- that’s a valuable map.

KAREN BREWSTER: Were there other maps that Joe had, like from the archives or anything? Or that was the only map you had? DICK MACKEY: That map was -- was dug out of some of the ruins of Iditarod. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: But that’s the only map you and Joe had? DICK MACKEY: Well, yeah. We never did have it. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DICK MACKEY: Jim Hastings gave it to me to raise money for Iditarod. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, I see. After you’d already -- DICK MACKEY: And -- and Jules Mead purchased it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. I thought -- so you and Joe didn’t have any map you were following? DICK MACKEY: No. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: No. We just followed -- you could see the trail so easily from the air. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and I find it interesting that even though it was a winter trail, you were -- there were still ruts from the sleds that you could see in places. DICK MACKEY: Oh, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: That just -- ’cause you’d think the snow would protect the -- DICK MACKEY: It was -- it was like I park -- I park my motorhome out here. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. DICK MACKEY: I’ve got horrible ruts. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: And, uh -- uh --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, but a winter trail, you’d think the snow would -- (Dick coughing) That the snow would protect the ground, and it wouldn’t have rutted. So that’s interesting. DICK MACKEY: Oh, yeah. You can -- you can tell where the trail is. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: If you know --

DICK MACKEY: And -- and here’s the thing. Here’s another thing, even though it was a winter trail, that doesn’t mean it was snow time yet. It was a frozen -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DICK MACKEY: Is when the ground was frozen, see. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: More -- more people walked the Iditarod Trail than rode with a dog sled or by dog team. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: Uh, and as -- as it got going between communities, and then the mail drivers, they had the right of way. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Then the freight teams. And the -- the -- and then the individual dog teams. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. But the mail team, then the freighters, and then the individuals would -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. But I saw an old hand-written -- not a hand-written, but a single sheet of paper that Walt Teeland showed me that at Knik, when it was a port, there was a -- whatever you call ’em, uh, advertising for -- for a dog. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. DICK MACKEY: Three hundred dollars. Three hundred dollars. KAREN BREWSTER: For one dog? DICK MACKEY: For one dog.

KAREN BREWSTER: In what, like 1910 or something? DICK MACKEY: Oh, I suppose. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: Back, well, when was Iditarod in its heyday? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, somewhere around then. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I can’t remember the e -- yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DICK MACKEY: But three hundred dollars. Imagine. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s got to be a good dog. DICK MACKEY: I mean, the -- well yeah, but they just wanted a dog. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. That could pack, what, twenty pounds? Twenty-five? KAREN BREWSTER: Probably more than that, a freight dog? I don’t know. DICK MACKEY: I don’t know. KAREN BREWSTER: Those were heavy sleds. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Um.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah, but I mean, how you -- when -- when you put a pack on a dog, how much can it carry? KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, I see. Not a sled dog, but a pack carrying, yeah, you’re right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Probably twenty-five pounds. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Those were big dogs. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, the other thing I’m wondering about. You know you mentioned the homesteads and where the trail went. And when you guys were putting in that trail, did you have to deal with issues about permits and easements and things like, I know in Coldfoot, you had a problem with that. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. No, we did not. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Right.

Now, when they came to survey it, maybe they did. Because see, that’s what I’m talking about that -- the two ladies there at -- KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. DICK MACKEY: -- at -- at Nine Mile. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: There’s the trail, whether you like it or not, ladies. I’m sorry, there’s the trail. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: (dog noise in background) Now, what -- what the state had to do, or the -- or the federal government with the national trail, I have no idea. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. So you guys, the -- you didn’t have to deal with that when you were marking it? DICK MACKEY: I didn't have to -- There’s the trail, like it or not. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. ’Cause I know in Coldfoot, the Coldfoot Classic, where you tried to get a permit for the Park Service, that was very complicated, to say the least, right? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: It didn’t need to be, (dog noise in background) but it -- it did. That’s a whole ’nother story. KAREN BREWSTER: It’s a whole ’nother story. But I didn’t know if there was a parallel to -- DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And there’s a lot of it that I wouldn’t say, either. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Well, I -- I just didn’t know if you faced similar things with the Iditarod? DICK MACKEY: No, we didn’t -- we didn't have to worry about that. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Um.

DICK MACKEY: Joe and Dick, find the original trail and mark it so that the outfit behind you can survey it. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: 'Cause it -- KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Ok.

Um, I did have a question. We’ve talked about Joe. But we also know that his wife, Vi Redington, she was involved as well, wasn’t she? (dog noise in background)

DICK MACKEY: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I -- I have to imagine, if you -- if you were married to Joe, you were involved, no matter what. Joe was what, fifteen years older than I was. (background noise from the nearby kitchen) We always -- he and I thought alike. We spent countless miles together. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: And uh -- (background noise from the nearby kitchen) And then, when -- when he got sick, we were living -- Cathy and I were living in Nenana, and then one day -- course I bought his dog team. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DICK MACKEY: In Nome. I got out of dogs. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. DICK MACKEY: When I went to Coldfoot. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: And shortly after, and -- and he said, "Hey, you need -- you need to have dogs." He said -- And I -- I says, "You know where there’s a team for sale?" He said, "Yeah." He says, "I’ll sell you my team." Sold me the team that he crossed the finish line in Nome. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. It was a big deal back in those days. (laughing) Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So what was Vi like as a person? DICK MACKEY: Vi was always, outwardly anyway, happy-go-lucky. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: (background noise from the nearby kitchen) Backed Joe a hundred percent. Backed him a hundred percent! Yeah. And god, they had some tough times, too, you know. He had a -- he had a boy that passed away. Same age as my Bill. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And uh, yeah. But uh --

KAREN BREWSTER: So were there specific things that Vi did to help with the promoting the trail and -- ? DICK MACKEY: No, she was just -- she was just always the woman behind Joe that helped him. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I don’t know what went on with them, you know. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. But she was always there? DICK MACKEY: But she was always there.

KAREN BREWSTER: She must’ve been pretty tough? DICK MACKEY: It was the lifestyle they lived. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: They had to be tough. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, exactly. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: You pioneers were all tough. DICK MACKEY: Yep. Yeah. Yeah, she was physically tough lady, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. (background noise from the nearby kitchen) DICK MACKEY: Just like my wife. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yep. Tough lady. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Put up with my crap, she had to be. (laughs)

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, is there anything else about the trail itself and the work you did to put it in, and any of those experiences that I haven’t brought up yet?

DICK MACKEY: Well -- well, I -- all I can say is, I’m proud I was part of it. Uh, it’s something -- It’s -- there’s two things. Is the Iditarod, my involvement in it. Uh, winning it was -- was great. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: But -- but that’s what you were striving for. So that’s -- It's -- it’s the event itself. It just had its fifty-first year. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: And then Cathy and I went to Coldfoot, and we built a facility up there in the middle of nowhere, and it’s still there. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: And -- and it will be. KAREN BREWSTER: Yep.

DICK MACKEY: Ok. (dog noise in background) And when I cam -- I was twenty-six years old when I came to Alaska. Sixty-five years ago. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: And I begrudged the time it took to eat and sleep, you know. (Karen chuckles) There’s a few people like that that come to Alaska today. And we need more of ’em. We need more of ’em.

I -- I get so upset with people that, we shouldn’t do this. We shouldn’t do that. The last road we built in Alaska was completed in 1971. Why you let the villages --? Well, you know, the -- the airline companies don’t like it. The seagoing freighters don’t like it, you know. And -- and a lot of the villages don’t like it, but a lot of the villages do like it, too. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: But it doesn’t get done because Washington knows how we should live. I don’t know. It --

KAREN BREWSTER: It’s complicated.

DICK MACKEY: It -- it’s complicated. You know, you used to build a school, and you just cleared ten acres of land to build a school. Now, they’re smart. They build a school, and they leave it every tree they possibly can. Well, why can’t you do that with a road? KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: Or why can’t you do that with something else? Uh, this -- the only reason we became a state was because of our natural resources. We convinced Washington, D.C., that we could survive as a state because of natural resources. We had timber. We had fish. And now we got oil. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: And we have a hard time utilizing it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Well, you said you were proud of the part you played in getting the Iditarod Trail and the race re-established. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Uh --

KAREN BREWSTER: It must’ve been hard, though? DICK MACKEY: It was -- it was terribly hard. Uh, in all honesty, it cost me a family. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And it did other people, too. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Uh --

KAREN BREWSTER: So if you had to go back, would you do it all again? DICK MACKEY: I wouldn’t change a thing. I wouldn’t change a thing. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: I’ve done a few good things in my life, and I’ve probably done a lot of not-so-good things in my life, but that’s all part of it. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, well, and it’s interesting that the fact that the trail got this historic designation doesn’t really matter to the race. DICK MACKEY: No. KAREN BREWSTER: Or -- DICK MACKEY: No. No. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: No. KAREN BREWSTER: It didn’t benefit -- DICK MACKEY: It’s the event. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And uh --

KAREN BREWSTER: So you guys would’ve done -- Well, you’d started the race before the designation, but it kind of went hand in hand?

DICK MACKEY: Well, it wouldn’t have been designated as part of the national trail system today if we hadn’t had the race. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: I’m -- I'm convinced of that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: It’s because we actually did it that that put it in the limelight. (background noise from the nearby kitchen) KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So it worked the other direction? DICK MACKEY: I mean, do you see any other part of it? Do you see the Denali Highway as part of the national deal, you know? KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. It’s -- it's because we did it. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: What was the village response and support for the -- DICK MACKEY: What was what? KAREN BREWSTER: The villages that the trail was going through and past. Were they involved at all?

DICK MACKEY: Oh, yeah. Well, I think they -- they used to -- used to draw names to see who could stay at their home. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And uh, after a -- after a few years, when it got a little larger number of people doing it, uh, perhaps it wasn’t fair, you know.

But this business of corralling that they’ve had for years now, I hate that. It took -- it took the relationship from the musher out of the village. KAREN BREWSTER: What’s -- what's corralling? What do you mean?

DICK MACKEY: Well, you no longer can stay overnight in a person’s home or something. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. Right. That’s considered help now? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. It was only fair to do that. To -- to come to that, but it’s -- it's too bad it did. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: Uh, but I think there’s going to be some -- I think there -- I think there's gonna be some major changes in -- in -- in the Iditarod. The first thing that, in my opinion, they should do, is take all that electronic stuff and throw it away. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. I think there’s something definitely wrong in any competitive event when I can get on the phone and call here and say, "You’re watching it on TV, what do you think I ought to do?" KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Something’s wrong there. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. I think when -- when you leave Willow, you’re on your own. KAREN BREWSTER: Yep. DICK MACKEY: Well, in fifty-one years, we’ve had a broken arm. We’ve had some hypothermia that other mushers took care of. You know, nobody’s died out there. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: And maybe someday somebody will. People die in all kinds of competitive events. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: There have been instances where (in a high-pitched voice) "Help, help --" KAREN BREWSTER: Pushed the button. DICK MACKEY: -- come help me!" KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Well, hey. Put your big-girl panties on, or whatever. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. (dog noise in background) I just don’t believe in that. There’s -- the last place finisher today. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Ok, is a week ahead of the winner. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: When it used to be. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: And we -- we went through this business, "Oh well, you know, we can’t have these tail -- tail-enders." And -- and so, I don’t know, we were ten years into the race. And I figured it up. First and last place was a week. First and last place today is a week. KAREN BREWSTER: There you go. DICK MACKEY: See, nothing’s changed.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, well, I was wondering, you know, the villages, as you said, they used to travel a lot between the villages. So did they already use parts of the Iditarod Trail? And were -- DICK MACKEY: Especially on the Yukon River. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Uh.

KAREN BREWSTER: But not the other parts that --? DICK MACKEY: No, very little of it. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Uh, until you got to, uh -- Unalakleet would go to Shaktoolik, but it -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: -- it -- most of their communications back in those days was religious conferences. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: They’d -- they'd have a church conference in -- in Elim. And people from White Mountain and Golovin would go there. And people from -- but -- Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, but so there weren’t old timers, old Native Elders, like in Ruby, who would know the trail back to Ophir? Or that you could ask about the trail?

DICK MACKEY: The first year we went to Iditarod, 1977, Adolph Hamilton from, uh, Shakto -- from -- from, oh god. Shageluk, when he was a boy, went with his dad to Iditarod. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: And he said, "I think I remember how to go." And he put the trail in from Shageluk back to Iditarod in 1977. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DICK MACKEY: Had a terrible time doing it. Yeah. Uh, I -- the first year of the race, I was running with Herbie Nayokpuk, Isaac Okleasik, and John Komak. John Komak was from Brevig Mission, which is just up the coast from Isaac’s at -- at Teller. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: And we get to the top of Topkok (Ridge or Hills) after leaving White Mountain, and I said, "Gee, John. How much further is it to -- " KAREN BREWSTER: White Mountain? DICK MACKEY: No, we’d just left White Mountain. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, to Nome? Or to Safety? DICK MACKEY: To -- KAREN BREWSTER: I mean, Safety would be -- DICK MACKEY: Council. No, not Council. I’d have to look at a book. KAREN BREWSTER: Candle? DICK MACKEY: I tell you, my memory’s losing. KAREN BREWSTER: I know.

DICK MACKEY: To the next -- Solomon. (Known originally as Erok, the community was a Native summer fish camp that grew into one of the busiest outposts on the Seward Peninsula during the Gold Rush. Solomon was also the terminus of a narrow-gauge railroad that extended to mining camps.) KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: And -- and the Okitkon boys -- In 1951, ’50 or '51, BIA closed the school. (The Bureau of Indian Affairs built a school in Solomon in 1940.) KAREN BREWSTER: At? DICK MACKEY: At Solomon. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: And that was the demise of the town. There’s some beautiful buildings there. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: Really nice. And the Okitkon brothers lived in one, and to use the city, what was known as the city hall, was just a wonderful old building, I had to get their permission. Ok.

So I’m fly in there and get their permission, ok. But then I get to the top of Topkok and I said to John Komak, "Where on earth is Solomon?" You look out there, you see nothing. And he says, "You see those two black specks over there?" No. I said I did. He said, "That’s Solomon." I said, "How do you know that?" You know what his answer was? Listen to this. "When I was a young boy, I came with my father here one time."

KAREN BREWSTER: And he remembered?

DICK MACKEY: Well, number one, why did they come from Brevig Mission there in the first place? But he did. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: I mean, that -- that’s like, I think I’ll drive to New York City. I mean. (laughs)

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. But that’s what they did in those days. They traveled -- DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: They traveled huge distances. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and that’s what I was wondering, if some of those -- DICK MACKEY: Yeah, but when I was a young boy. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, that they remembered. Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: And, you know, the first two years of Iditarod, we were timed, ok. Donna Hanks and Jackie Knoll were the same timers that Dick Tozier had for the Fur Rendezvous in the North America. And we were timed.

And this John Komak, who I’d been running with ever since Ophir, he and Isaac and Herbie Nayokpuk, and I could come in behind him twenty minutes and beat him. KAREN BREWSTER: How -- how would -- DICK MACKEY: Because of the time starting differential. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DICK MACKEY: See, we were actually timed. There was no making up time on a twenty-four. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok, right.

DICK MACKEY: But there’s no way he was going to be able to comprehend that, you know. So I had to beat him.

I mean, we only had forty -- forty miles to go, and I had to gain more than twenty minutes on him. It was -- it was not easy.

KAREN BREWSTER: You had some tough finishes, that’s for sure. DICK MACKEY: Oh, man. But I was -- I was younger. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: I was --

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it’s -- it's interesting to hear about what you said about Adolph Hamilton and these other Elders. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Who could help tell where the trail went. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Was there anybody -- other ones you remember, like in McGrath or Ruby or anyplace? ’Cause, as you say, once they’re out on the river, it was pretty --

DICK MACKEY: No, see, from McGrath -- They have a McGrath Landing on the Takotna River, and there’s a roadway. And then, actually, there’s a road all the way to Ophir. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh? DICK MACKEY: What they call the rural road deal or something. It's --

KAREN BREWSTER: Was it an old mining road? DICK MACKEY: Well, yeah, but it’s a current -- there’s current funds that maintain -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DICK MACKEY: -- these old mining roads. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. In --

KAREN BREWSTER: But -- but, in the ’73 when the trail was first used, was -- was that road there? DICK MACKEY: Well, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And -- and, uh, but in the wintertime, it becomes a trail. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: And some of the deals was utilized because it happened to be there, but they’ve -- it’s just like Donlin Gold. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. DICK MACKEY: Ok. They want to build a, uh, natural gas pipeline from Anchorage all the way over there to the Kuskokwim. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: Where you suppose they want to go? KAREN BREWSTER: They want to follow the Iditarod Trail. DICK MACKEY: Well, of course. KAREN BREWSTER: Because it’s already there.

DICK MACKEY: Well, and why is the Iditarod Trail where it is? ’Cause those old timers went where you could go. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: You know, they knew how to go. The -- the surprising part of it is, when we became a state, the new state Department of Transportation intended to put roads in all those places. We didn’t have the money. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DICK MACKEY: But, of course, it was going to go through Rainy Pass. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, so the Iditarod Trail was never an RS 240 -- 4477 -- (RS2477 Historic Trails and Historic DOT Trails in the State of Alaska, with RS 2477 standing for Revised Statute 2477 from the Mining Act of 1866.) DICK MACKEY: No. KAREN BREWSTER: -- mining road? DICK MACKEY: No. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: No. No. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Pieces of it were. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. But uh, that pipeline, if it ever comes to be, is not going to interfere with the Iditarod Trail. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Uh.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, the trail’s protected. DICK MACKEY: Huh? KAREN BREWSTER: As you said, the historic designation protects the trail. DICK MACKEY: Well, yeah. I mean, it -- it might be five feet off of the designation. So what? I don’t see it hurts anything.

I think the one company, just my own personal opinion, the one company that has done everything correctly, is Donlin Gold. I mean, for twenty years, they’ve gone to those villages and taken those kids and -- and, here’s how you do this, and here’s how you do that. And if it ever goes, and a young guy in his twenties can retire from there. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: And that part of the country needs that. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. DICK MACKEY: Needs that.

And -- and now is it going to interfere with the environment? Maybe in some ways, but do it correctly. You know. You want to -- you -- you don’t want the air polluted. You don’t want the water polluted. You don’t want the ground polluted any more than you have to. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, I think you were lucky that you came in the early days and were able to be involved in things like this, with the marking the trail and getting it designated.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. I -- I -- When I came to Alaska, I drove over the Denali Highway. It had just opened. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: A year or two before. It was like driving up a rock creek bed, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: And I suppose there were some people that didn’t like it back then, but I think it’s beautiful country. KAREN BREWSTER: It is. DICK MACKEY: And it didn’t hurt it a bit by having a road there. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: No.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and the trail from, you know, Willow or Knik or wherever, through the mountains and all that, that must’ve been -- must be beautiful country. DICK MACKEY: Stunning. Yeah. And -- and you know how big you are? KAREN BREWSTER: Little teeny.

DICK MACKEY: You’re a speck. And you look at that mountain range, and, "Oh, my god, I gotta go across that thing?" Couple days later, "Oh, there it is. I went across it." KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Wow. I mean, it’s just -- it's -- it’s -- it's mind-boggling.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it must’ve been exciting. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And then, you get out on the sea ice, for instance, going from Shaktulik to Koyuk. And it’s a clear day, which very seldom happens. And it’s like, "Holy mackerel. Look what I’m doing." KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: I mean, it could be scary. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: And I’ve seen it when it was. KAREN BREWSTER: Yes, it can be very -- DICK MACKEY: Very scary. KAREN BREWSTER: -- very scary. Yes. (Dick coughs)

But yeah, I think being able to say you helped put that trail in, that section of trail, is pretty neat. Pretty exciting.

DICK MACKEY: Well, by working on a section down here, you still had no idea what it was like up there, any more than they knew what it was like down here. It’s -- it's a different world. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: And uh, I don’t know, I -- I happen to think that the people that live in that part of the world, boy, they're -- they really are tough people. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, and as I say, it's pretty -- pretty exciting to be -- to say you helped pioneer that trail. DICK MACKEY: It -- KAREN BREWSTER: You know, re-designate it. Get it put back in.

DICK MACKEY: Well, I -- I don’t know. I might think different. Uh, today, most people that come to Alaska, they -- they certainly have a job waiting for them or they wouldn’t come.

They’ve managed to gather up some resources. Maybe they even got a nice home to move into. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. DICK MACKEY: Or maybe the company even pays ’em to move here.

Uh, I came up here with a wife and three kids and absolutely dead broke. Didn’t know a soul.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: And -- and Alaska appealed to my way of thinking. Uh, I think it’s a great state. I still think it’s a great state. I waited until I was -- there was a lot of years behind me before I got involved in the Iditarod, and before -- especially before Coldfoot. And I think there’s still opportunities today. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: But uh, I -- I -- I think you have to just take the plunge, and a lot of people aren’t willing to do that. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Well, what -- what happens if -- if I don’t get a paycheck and --? (coughs)

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it is a different world, that’s for sure. DICK MACKEY: (coughs) It’s a different world completely.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, ok, well, I think I’ll wrap it up. I’ve made you talk for a long time. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Unless there’s anything else, any other memories or stories -- DICK MACKEY: (coughing) Excuse me. There’s a -- there's a million of 'em, if something -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: -- brings it up. (laughs)

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, that’s why I was trying to focus on, you know, the trail itself and the marking -- the finding the route and marking it and that aspect of it.

DICK MACKEY: (coughing) The funny part of it is, as you were doing it, you never thought about the future. It’s when you look back on it, holy mackerel. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: That’s when it amounts to something.

Uh, Dan Seavey’s a good friend of mine. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. DICK MACKEY: And back a few years ago. Oh maybe, ten years ago, before Shirley passed away, he says, "Maybe it’s time for the Iditarod to end?" KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DICK MACKEY: I don’t think it should ever end. I think it should change. Uh, I think you should want to run the Iditarod to run the Iditarod. You should want to run it to take a dog team from this part of the state to the other part of the state.

Maybe all you get’s a trophy? I don’t care if you win. You’re not going to make any money. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: You know.

Uh, and I think what money there is, is going to come from Alaska. Uh, people like PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals organization) take care of that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: And -- and you can’t -- you cannot change a radical’s opinion. I was up at Nome, I don’t know, a couple years ago. Here’s a woman with a sign, ok. She says, "I know who you are." I said, "Well, I don’t know if that’s a compliment or not." And on the back of this sign is her speech that she’s reading.

KAREN BREWSTER: It was an animal rights --? DICK MACKEY: Oh, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- kind of sign? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: They’ve no idea. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: Now, this year, they lost three dogs. Ok. That’s unfortunate. And if you own ’em, it’s damn unfortunate. But during the two weeks that those three dogs died, how many did they put to sleep at the shelter in Anchorage?

KAREN BREWSTER: That’s an interesting comparison. Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Huh? KAREN BREWSTER: That’s -- that's a good question.

DICK MACKEY: Uh, if you go to the shelter in Anchorage, and years ago, I used to. And I’d take my dogs there. And I had a dog that I just really felt a lot of -- and they have a new machine down there that is the humane way to get rid of a dog. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. DICK MACKEY: And it looked like a vacuum chamber. KAREN BREWSTER: Huh.

DICK MACKEY: I put my dog in it, and the phone rang. And the lady went and talking on the phone and forgot to shut the machine off. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, no. DICK MACKEY: I never went back. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: It was pathetic. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: It was -- don’t talk to me about a humane way. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Well, hopefully that has not continued to be the practice. DICK MACKEY: No, it -- I don't know, it --

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it -- it also seems very clear from talking to you that it’s very hard to separate the history of the trail and the history of the race. That they’re very interconnected.

That what Dorothy and Joe and you started, 1967, was the trail and dog racing all intertwined. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Uh, I grew up milking cows, ok. KAREN BREWSTER: In New Hampshire? DICK MACKEY: It’s the same thing. KAREN BREWSTER: Yep. DICK MACKEY: It’s three hundred and sixty-five days a year. There’s good and there’s bad people doing it. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And dog mushing is no -- no different. If you -- if you get in a bind and can’t adequately take care of your dogs, then call for help. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Don’t let it fall apart. Call for help. There’s a lot of help out there.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Uh, I think, from what I read, dog mushing is alive and well and prospering and growing. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. DICK MACKEY: Uh, you know, when -- when I first got into it, a pretty ragged bunch of people. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: And back then, you could do everything. You -- you were your own vet. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: And I got a dog that, no matter what I’ve done, no matter how many shots I give him, whatever, he’s going downhill. I take it to the vet, and he dies. What the hell am I paying the vet for? KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: So we got a bad reputation. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DICK MACKEY: You know. Uh, and oh, he lived. Oh, I ain’t got any money anyway. (laughs)

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and -- and as -- as you said, um, that the Iditarod race was gonna continue whether the trail got a historic designation or not. That didn’t make any difference to the dog mushers and the racers. DICK MACKEY: No. No. No. The only thing that -- that I appreciate is the fact it’s a greenbelt across Alaska. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And -- and -- and I just think that’s important.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and do you have any feeling about it as history? That it’s preserving some sense of history? DICK MACKEY: It is, and I wished -- Well, there’s -- You know, when old buildings fall down, old buildings fall down. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: I wish that people today could see some of the places I saw fifty years ago. And, of course, that’s not going to happen. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: You know, to me it’s -- I just kinda shake my head. Fifty years ago. Holy mackerel, you know. (laughing)

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, some -- sometimes old buildings can be restored and preserved. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I guess the one that really comes to mind is the one out there by Poorman. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: Uh, I mean, I stopped, got out my snowshoes, and snowshoed over there to really look at it, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: And there are people that would look at it from the trail and say, "Oh, what a dump that is, falling down." And then there’s people who would see the history of it. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, and you say that the mushers today don’t have that sense of history, maybe? DICK MACKEY: Very few. They’re racing. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: There’s no camaraderie anymore. There’s no setting around a campfire anymore. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: You know, that kind of stuff.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, well, it would be interesting to think about if something could be done on the trail to help promote the history again for the mushers. They do other things, but -- DICK MACKEY: You gotta take the race out of it. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I was thinking, yeah, when -- Like Norman Vaughan did some re-creating serum run stuff. But that wasn’t on the -- that wasn’t for the Iditarod Trail? DICK MACKEY: No. But, that was another trail I put in. From Nenana to -- well, actually I put it in from Nenana all the way to Tanana. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Uh, it was an experience. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: I mean, the old trail, but we actually cut it, so that you could get through. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, 'cause it had --? DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: But that wasn’t an old -- the old Minto trail, the old Native trail? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yep.

KAREN BREWSTER: So when did you put that in? DICK MACKEY: The year that Joe started that deal going to Nome. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DICK MACKEY: Mm-hm. I can’t remember the year. Yeah. That was my downfall. I was always involved in the trail. Yep.

And in 19 -- in the fall of 1977, Joe was over to the house, and we’re sitting there drinking coffee, and -- Although he drank Tang and I drank coffee. And I said, "I hate to tell you this, buddy, but I’m going to back off for a year on some of this work. And my dog team’s getting old. I’m going to see what I can do." And lo and behold, I won by one second. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: But, yep. KAREN BREWSTER: Yep.

DICK MACKEY: And when I originally moved from Anchorage to Wasilla, I moved to the snow belt, which is now Willow. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: It might not be this in any one winter, but, overall, the snow belt is Willow now. That’s how much things have changed. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: But, yep.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it sounds like lots of good memories. DICK MACKEY: Yeah, really. Yeah. Yeah. And -- and the people along the way, yeah. Yeah.

I remember that first year, we came to Big River, which was -- actually, it was one checkpoint. You left Farewell Station, and then there was what they called Big River, which had an old roadhouse, broken down, falling down, and there was a guy in a tent with a Ham radio operator.

He had no idea when he walked -- (laughs) And anyway, here’s a -- here's an old half-broken down log building, which was the old, uh, what did I just say? KAREN BREWSTER: Roadhouse?

DICK MACKEY: Old roadhouse. And there was a guy named Esau and his wife there, from Nikolai. And they had just got there, hour or so in front of us. Going down there to do his spring beaver trapping. And they invited us in.

And Ron Aldridge and I were the -- there was Ron Aldridge, Ron Oviak from Point Hope, and Raymie Redington, and I. And Ron Aldridge and I, we were the old guys.

So when it came time to bed down, they suggested that we sleep in the bed built into the side of the wall. And they had built a fire. And it snowed like a son of a gun. Oh man, it just piled up.

And this Esau guy said, "In the morning, I’ll snowshoe the trail, because if you miss the portage, you’ll be going -- following the river, and you’ll go miles out of your way." Ok.

So Ron and I, we -- we throw our sleeping bags down on that bed. Well, pretty quick it gets pretty warm. And I said, "Hey, Ron, this bed’s coming alive." (laughs) And so, "Oh man, it’s hot up here. We’d do better on the floor."

KAREN BREWSTER: ’Cause the fire was so hot? Is that why? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. The cabin was warming up and the animals were coming alive. (laughs)

And so anyway, the next morning, we’re waiting and waiting and fooling around, and thinking, "When’s this guy going to put in the trail?" And he’s thinking the same thing, "When are you guys going to get going?"

And so, finally, he gets out there. It is the greatest display of snowshoeing I have ever seen. And some years later, when we go -- when we would st -- were going through Nikolai, I happened to meet him and reminded him of that.

He put on those snowshoes with a string. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DICK MACKEY: On each foot. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DICK MACKEY: Because you couldn’t put your foot up. That’s how high the snow was. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, I see.

DICK MACKEY: And he never stopped. And we’re behind him with the dogs. And he got to this portage and waved us on. And I turned around. He’s going back the same way. Yeah. Man, that guy could run on snowshoes. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. So -- DICK MACKEY: Yeah. He was good.

KAREN BREWSTER: How long did it take? DICK MACKEY: Huh? KAREN BREWSTER: How long was he out there snowshoeing? DICK MACKEY: Oh, it was several miles. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, wow. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. Well, there was such a snowstorm, that I think Tozier sent snowmachines back, finally, and -- and went over the trail. Yeah. Yeah. Anybody behind us, they’d -- they'd have been in trouble without that. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: But back in those days -- now you got a trail no matter what. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. You didn’t use to have. And you couldn’t find it. Oh, my god, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So even though you guys went and marked it and blazed it, there were times you still couldn’t find it? DICK MACKEY: Well, see -- in that part -- that part we only ran for two years. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. DICK MACKEY: See? Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then you re-routed it? DICK MACKEY: Yeah, and then they started this business up at Willow. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

KAREN BREWSTER: All right. Well, I thank you so much for your time.

DICK MACKEY: Well, it’s been -- it's been fun. Uh, I was -- I was always bugged. You know, "why didn’t you take some pictures?" So I got two of these throw-away cameras with thirty-six in 'em. You remember when they had those? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: One of 'em froze. I didn’t get anything. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: And the other one, I had the tail end, thirty-six pictures of a dog team. (laughter) Yeah. Yeah. That’s -- that's all you do, is concentrate.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. I mean, as you say, you’re out doing it. You’re not thinking about what it’s going to mean in fifty years. DICK MACKEY: Well, no. And -- KAREN BREWSTER: You just did it.

DICK MACKEY: I could’ve taken some pictures. Yeah. But I could -- Well, I spent a lot of time, not just in the race, but other than that. I -- I set up all the checkpoint system that we have today, and everything. The committee gave me all of three hundred bucks to do that. (laughter) Yeah. Yeah.

And I was still learning to fly back then. And eh, I don’t think I want to do that. So I got a guy and he had Anchorage Towing and Wrecking. I can’t -- Jim somebody.

And he picked me up at Wasilla airstrip, and we started out for Nome. And we no sooner got up -- We left Puntilla Lake and got up there and -- and ran into a snowstorm. He started going up and up and up. And, oh crap.

So anyway, we made it over to, I think Farewell in those days, and then went on to McGrath. And we left McGrath. And now, this guy’s wearing a suit and a tie. And I’m not impressed with him at all.

And then he started kind of circling around. "What the hell’s this guy doing?" He said, "Ha, there’s Ganes Creek. There I was. 1939 when I signed up for the army." (laughter) Ok. He was a good guy.

KAREN BREWSTER: He passed the test? DICK MACKEY: (laughing) Yeah. There I was, back 1939, when I signed up for the army. And all of a sudden, I thought he knew what he was doing.

KAREN BREWSTER: I also just was thinking about all that time you spent doing the trail work and running the trail, the connection you have. Like, you know exac -- when you say Puntilla Lake, you know exactly what it looks like. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: You have a deep connection to that land and the landscape. And those six weeks you spent with Joe on the trail. DICK MACKEY: Oh, see -- KAREN BREWSTER: It has a lot of meaning for you.

DICK MACKEY: My dad passed away the first year of the first day. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And you didn’t know about it until you got to Nome? DICK MACKEY: That’s right. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DICK MACKEY: And Joe (Redington) and I had always been -- we always just hit it off. And sometimes we’d talk some pretty serious stuff. And he became my dad. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Even though there was only fifteen year’s difference. He became my dad. And anyway, before he passed away, uh, Vi (Redington) called up. We were living in Nenana. She said, "You need to get down here."

So we did. We come right down. And Joee had moved from up there to Eureka and was taking care of him. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh.

DICK MACKEY: Vi wasn’t taking care of him. And, uh, we -- we walked in the house, and Joe says, "Joee, get me dressed. I’m going to the dog lot." KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh.

DICK MACKEY: And Joee says, "No, you can’t go, Dad." At that time, he was getting maybe three hundred calories a day. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: And -- and, he said, (in deep serious voice) "I said, get me dressed. I’m going to the dog lot." He did. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DICK MACKEY: Cathy and I visited with Vi while he got him dressed. And we went out to the dog lot, and we sat on a bench there. And he and I talked dogs.

And that’s the last time he was in the dog lot. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. But that -- DICK MACKEY: I got a picture of that out in the garage. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Not so many people have that connection to the landscape and the -- that you do, from having spent so much time out on that trail.

DICK MACKEY: And -- and -- and -- and the people in the villages. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. DICK MACKEY: I don’t now. They’ve all passed away.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Uh, there was, uh, Ernie Edlend (sp?) in Elim. He drew my number, and I can’t remember who else, that first year of the race.

And he decided he was going to make pancakes, and give us eggs, for breakfast. Which he probably had never done in his life. But he was --This was an honor. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Ok. God. (laughing) We ate ’em.

KAREN BREWSTER: Not the best, huh? DICK MACKEY: No, they were -- they were awful. (laughing) Yeah. And I mean, you almost said, "Ernie, what do you normally have? That’s what we’ll have, too." KAREN BREWSTER: He probably normally had muktuk or -- DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- or -- or dry fish or something.

DICK MACKEY: (laughing) And -- but it’s stuff like that. I’d get to -- I'd get to Unalakleet, and, oh god. Mary Lou, I’ll think of her name.

After a while, she’d say -- her daughter would be there at the checkpoint, and she’d say, "Uh, Dick. Mom’s -- mom's got your steak cooking." You know.

Well, then here’s this guy that maybe's a rookie. He don’t have no place to go. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: So that wasn’t right, either, you know. That’s what changed it all.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. But so special moments, for sure, in those days. DICK MACKEY: Yeah, I can -- I can say that in every place, you know. Go over there to Poorman with Norman. I wished I could remember his last name. And his wife’s name was Bertha. And they lived in Anchorage.

And boy, they had some nice houses. Old. Old. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Like Flat houses. You ever been to Flat? KAREN BREWSTER: No, I’ve never been out there.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. I tried to buy one one time, and it was one of those, you couldn’t buy a Native allotment type thing, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. DICK MACKEY: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, that’s why I say, I’ve never been out in that country. And that’s why, to hear you talk about it, I can tell it means a lot to you. DICK MACKEY: Oh, oh. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: From all that time you’ve spent there, and -- DICK MACKEY: Yeah. This, Jim -- Jim Hastings.

I had an Indian from up at Kantishna call me one night when I was living over here north of Willow -- of Wasilla. He says, "I got a dog for you." Well, I drove right up there. I’m always interested in a dog. And uh, nice big dog.

Too big for what I was using, but I was raising some chickens. I had a hundred little chicks about like that. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh.

DICK MACKEY: I went to town, and I came home, and there was one left. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, no. DICK MACKEY: Here’s that dog, setting there with the tail. (laughter)

So I took it over to Jim (Hastings). It was he and Cathy (Jim's wife) and two sons. And we’d been there three years, I guess, now.

And -- and every time I -- I did a lot of work up in Nome, Kotzebue, and every time I’d go, I’d stop in and bring a case of peaches or something. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DICK MACKEY: Fruit. And we got to be good friends.

I dropped -- stopped in there one time, and just he and -- she and -- Cathy and the two boys. I said, "Where’s Jim?" "Well, he’s building a new cabin over in the other valley." Which is the one leading into Flat, coming from McGrath.

I said, "What are you going over there for?" "Well," he says, "it’s too crowded around here. Geez, we only came once a year. (laughter) And just wanted some different deal.

Well, that was on the way to Kotzebue. On the way back, a few days later, I stopped, and there’s Jim. He says, "Well, I’m glad you’re here." I said, "Last time I was here, you was over working on a new cabin." I said, "How far is it, anyway?" He says, "Well, I don’t rightly know. But it’s two hard days on snowshoes."

KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DICK MACKEY: Now, two hard days on snowshoes for him was thirty-five miles, anyway. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DICK MACKEY: And uh, "Well, what are you doing here?" "I run out of tobacco." (laughter) Yeah. Yeah. "I ran out of tobacco."

Well, in 1985, I was the race manager. And it was a terrible year, because we didn’t -- the Iditarod, as usual, had no money. And we send all our food shipments out through this, uh, I don’t know, Interior mail deal where it goes at a reduced rate. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, bulk mail?

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And uh, no planes could fly out of McGrath. That’s where some of the food went. And then it went to Galena. And then it went to Holy Cross.

And so, they put a stop on the race. And actually, they didn’t need to because you always knew who was going to be close to the lead, if not in the lead, and their food, you'd -- you know, you’d make sure that food was there, and then a few more guys, and on and on and on.

But anyway, a guy up from Anaktuvuk (Pass) was the radio operator, and we hadn’t got to satellites yet. And he was at Iditarod, and I pulled in there, and everybody’s got a long face.

And the school kids each year from the Iditarod Area School District -- KAREN BREWSTER: Mm-hm. DICK MACKEY: -- would -- would be the people, you know, the kids. And Holy Cross kids.

And Cathy (Hastings) was cooking soup for all those kids. There must’ve been twenty of ’em. And somehow that kettle tipped over onto her. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, no. DICK MACKEY: Boiling. And I came up there, you know, and, of course I’m all, ha, ha-ha, ha-ha. And everybody’s sad.

And Jim says, "Cathy got hurt." "What’s the matter?" Told me. And, "Where is she?" "She’s in bed." He said, "Dick, I -- I wouldn’t let anybody else see my wife but you." I went in there, oh my god, that had spilled over the front of her, and huge blisters all over.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, she was really burned? DICK MACKEY: Just -- just blisters. I said, "Jim, she’s got to get to the doctor." KAREN BREWSTER: This was Cathy Hastings? DICK MACKEY: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, ok.

DICK MACKEY: And I said -- I said, "Jim, she’s got to get to the doctor, to the hospital." "Uh, well, we don’t have any money." I said, "That doesn’t make any difference. She’s got to get --" I said, "I’ll fly her into McGrath, and then we’ll get a jet in there."

And, well then, the radio operator, he got on the radio, and what they did is, because it was the school kids from Holy Cross, they made -- hired her as a school cook. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DICK MACKEY: So she had insurance. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. And I don’t know, whomever, somebody else besides me, got her into -- got her into McGrath and got her into Anchorage. Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. (dog barking in background)

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I think, your -- I don’t know if that’s your dog Foxy barking or another dog barking.

DICK MACKEY: Yeah. The kids are here. Grandkids are here. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. Lance’s kids. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Well, I think we should finish off then. DICK MACKEY: Ok. KAREN BREWSTER: And let you go be grandpa. Ok, thank you very much for your time. DICK MACKEY: You’re -- you're more than welcome. I -- Most of this was just talking. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DICK MACKEY: Yeah. (laughs)