KAREN BREWSTER: Ok, this is Karen Brewster, and today is April 20, 2022, and I am here in Fairbanks, Alaska, with Al Ketzler, Jr. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Who goes by the nickname of Bear.

Is that correct? BEAR KETZLER: That’s correct, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: That is -- BEAR KETZLER: All my life.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, um, so. Thank you for letting me come visit you today at your house. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so, really what this is going to be about is about ANCSA. Wait -- we’ll pause for a second. BEAR KETZLER: Ok.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok, so this interview is focused on the Alaska Native Land Claims Settlement Act and land claims period and before the act. Um, so it’s for the ANCSA Project Jukebox.

But leading up to that, why don’t you tell us a little bit about who you are. BEAR KETZLER: Ok.

KAREN BREWSTER: And your personal history, so people know who they’re listening to.

BEAR KETZLER: Right. Ok. Well, I’m, you know, of course, raised in Nenana. And so, you know, my raised in Nenana goes from the middle, or the early, late '50’s, you know, all the way until I left in -- to the Marine Corps in 1975.

And so, over those course of the period of that time, it’s -- was very apparent my parents were involved in something that -- you know, especially in my dad’s sense, he was traveling all the time.

KAREN BREWSTER: Why don't we say who your parents --

BEAR KETZLER: And my parents was DeLois Ketzler and Al Ketzler, Sr.

And, you know, lucky for us, I guess, my mother was -- kept us very much informed of what, you know, what your dad, our dad was doing.

And um, for cert -- you know, I can -- for optimism or whatever, but they felt that they were on the right track and that, you know, by the way, we’re going to get, you know, basically, the -- our land back, you might say. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Some sort of a aspect of -- some sort of a settlement. And um, so you know, that’s, um.

KAREN BREWSTER: So your parents were very involved in the early land claims movement. I know the story. BEAR KETZLER: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: But. BEAR KETZLER: And they were very --

KAREN BREWSTER: Somebody listening wouldn’t know it.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Well, they, um, my mother’s dad, Charlie Purvis, he was an activist all the time, and he was kind of an activist that, to help the underdog, I think, was his --

He was a Kansas City boy and got sent off when he was very young to World War II, and he -- which changed his life quite a bit, in the sense of what he seen.

He did most of his tour in the Philippines, and the way, you know, that way that people were treated in the Philippines.

But he came to Alaska and came to Nenana, and, you know, came up to Alaska to kind of look for -- seek employment opportunities, because at that time there was quite a bit of activity here in Alaska in relation to building military infrastructure.

And so, he made it up here, and when he got to my hometown where I was raised, Nenana, in the early '50’s, the people that befriended him were the Alas -- were the local Native people there.

And Chief Frank Alexander, who was an elderly man then when my grandpa met him, he had to be in his, geez, yeah, he was already in his 70’s because he lived to be close to 100. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

BEAR KETZLER: ’Cause, well, the basketball team, when I was a freshman, we were all the pallbearers for him. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm.

BEAR KETZLER: ’Cause he was very much an avid basketball fan. Even though he acknowledged to my mother, he said that, you know, "I don’t know what they’re doing out there, but it’s good to see the young men out there doing, and being busy." You know.

KAREN BREWSTER: That’s good. BEAR KETZLER: Doing something.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Keeping you out of trouble, right?

BEAR KETZLER: Keeping out of trouble. But uh, so yeah, my grandfather came entrusted with the Native community, and that led to meeting other people.

And at that time, the State of Alaska, well, Alaska hadn’t been created yet, but there was talk that Alaska will, you know, become a state of the union, and it was a concern of the Native people, like, you know, if the state comes, what do we have?

I mean, what about our trap lines? What about our fishing rights? You know, what about subsistence?

And already, the laws, the white man laws, were well in place. Because there was a lot of people from Nenana that would end up in the state, or the -- well, it wasn’t called the state then because we weren’t a state. But the federal marshal system, you know, for hunting, killing a moose out of season. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. BEAR KETZLER: Killing ducks, you know.

And so that was, you know, very apparent that that was already happening.

And um, so -- and if there was a moose killed, it was -- it’s just like anywhere. They had a list of suspects, and the marshals would come in and say, "Ok, Charlie Smith, you did it. You’re going to jail." KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

BEAR KETZLER: That’s how, you know, kinda -- So my grandfather not only and -- or being approached that way from the Native community, when he seen the injustice, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: That they -- it was hard to get jobs and they couldn’t get jobs, you know, working for the -- especially for the military industrial. Be it private contractors or for the military themselves in building infrastructure.

Um, you know, so the only jobs that were kind of available for the Native community was the railroad. The hard working, the linemen, you know, the ones that pounded the spike and lay track.

And then another area that the Native community did get jobs was on the boats in the summer. Those were run by the federal government. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: The steamer Alice. KAREN BREWSTER: Steamboat, right. BEAR KETZLER: And the steamer Nenana and all them. They got deckhand jobs or what they call firemen.

And, of course, you know, the firemen were the guys that ran the boilers six hours on, six hours off. And that was a job that nobody else wanted to do. Stand in front of the hot boilers and load it up with firewood all day and all -- Six-hour shifts.

So anyway, that’s another aspect that, you know, my grandfather, you know, witnessed when he got to the Nenana area.

Of course, he met Minto people 'cause Minto people are related to Nenana people. Then Nenana people are related to the Wood River people. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Which there wasn’t that many people left in Wood River at that time, but that’s where Chief Thomas was kind of originally from. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And um, there was, you know, there was four tribes that kind of lived in the Nenana area.

KAREN BREWSTER: So the other ones were? Tolovana?

BEAR KETZLER: The Tolovana, the Nenana. You know, the Fish Tail, the Beaver Tail tribe. The Middle Tribe. You know, there’s a tribe called the Middle Tribe. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: That’s kinda where some of the -- Elizabeth Sunnyboy -- or Elizabeth Demientieff’s family is from, was from the Middle Tribe. That’s where Mitch Demientieff -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

BEAR KETZLER: Was a -- He’s a Middle Tribe member. And um.

KAREN BREWSTER: And the Kantishna? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, that’s kind of -- KAREN BREWSTER: Is that -- BEAR KETZLER: That's kind of the --

KAREN BREWSTER: Or Minchumina? BEAR KETZLER: The Middle Tribe. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Minchumina, not Kantishna. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, that's kind of --

KAREN BREWSTER: That’s the Middle Tribe? Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, that’s kind of the -- kind of related there, the Duycks, and -- the last name Duyck. Percy Duyck and Greta. So uh, yeah. There was that -- that group there.

And um, ’cause I was, you know, later on in life, I was, you know, I guess really kind of lucky enough that a friend of mine, Bill Stroecker, who was at that time, when I met him, he was already retired as a banker, but he was still -- still had an office in a bank.

And I bought a piece of property from him. And um, he found that I was a history buff. You know, interested in history. And especially, of course, in the Native community, and he had a lot of history of the Native community. He was very much interested in that. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

BEAR KETZLER: And he had friends all over from Eagle to Fort Yukon. He had all these different friends. Artisans. He bought a lot of Native art. You know.

And I just learned recently here at his estate sale that how much Native art he had purchased over the years. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, yeah. BEAR KETZLER: He had quite a bit. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: But he -- he found the -- he told me that he had found -- read years ago, the captain’s, um, log or the captain’s journal of his -- the first trip up the Tanana River. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: In 18 -- the summer of 1898. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Which is many years before the first person that they give credit to. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. BEAR KETZLER: Captain Adams, bringing --

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, it was before Adams?

BEAR KETZLER: Oh, yeah. Way before, yeah. Adams didn’t come up 'til 1902, 1903, somewhere in there. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, when he landed. And that’s where he landed. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: As far as you could go was where Fairbanks. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: You know, was developed.

But um, so anyway, and the captain, Captain Morgan’s recount, you know, he had a lot of history of the Native people in there himself. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: So that was, you know -- KAREN BREWSTER: Interesting.

BEAR KETZLER: Getting that about 28 pages that was written in the 19 -- let’s see, late '20’s or early '30’s, so it was like 30 years later. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: He wrote this for the Nome Nugget. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. BEAR KETZLER: The newspaper. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And kinda turned it into -- so that’s how I got my hands on a copy of that.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, but so, can I ask what year you were born? BEAR KETZLER: I was born in ’56.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok, and where do you fall -- aren’t there five or six of you? BEAR KETZLER: I’m the oldest of six. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, and so, what are your sort of earliest memories of what was happening in the house with your parents and -- BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- grandfather and what was going on?

BEAR KETZLER: Right. Right. Well, I mean, I -- I, you know, ’cause in those days, you didn’t have babysitters or childcare or nothing, so my mother would, you know, load us up, be it on the wagon or on a, um, little dogsled or something and haul us around to these meetings.

And so I remember some of the meetings. Probably starting in the early '60’s. I know they were -- they had meetings before then.

I mean, things were well under way to a certain degree. But so, you know, it seemed pretty consistent that there were always meetings at our house. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Not only meetings around my dad’s work, the summer work, which is on the docks. You know, there was the organization of the union there. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: So there were a lot of meetings there.

But there's -- and my grandfather would bring people in, you know.

And he had developed a connection to, oh, I would call the intellectual class of Fairbanks. You know, Sandy Jensen, you know, a university person. Um, but he had connected, then, to the university. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: I’m not sure how. Might’ve been through the Unitarian Church. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s possible.

BEAR KETZLER: Or the Quakers’ church or something.

KAREN BREWSTER: Was that -- was he involved with those?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, I mean, he -- he would go to different churches, denominations, and just get to know the people.

Um, he would, you know -- he just loved learning about different people. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. BEAR KETZLER: Be it Jewish or, you know, or black.

Um, and so anyway, that -- You know, he would introduce some of these people and they would come down, and he would --

By the time they came to Nenana, they were already committed. Like, oh, this is exciting. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, this is exciting stuff, working to, you know -- for -- on behalf of the Native people.

And at that time, it was Native people. It wasn’t presented as statewide.

Yeah, my mind wasn’t around the statewide thing, but it was about indigenous claims to the land.

So, and I have been fortunate enough, you know, in the very -- it would be in the early '60’s when Alfred Starr, um, who is primarily the person who, um, fed my grandfather information about this indigenous claims, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And so, Alfred at the meetings -- you know, during potlatches in Nenana, which in those days, there was a potlatch -- You know, we didn’t have potlatches just for deaths, like we have today. It used to be a potlatch for anything really. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

BEAR KETZLER: I mean, it just -- You know, the spring fish catch to, you know, to a turkey shoot. Um, you know, I mean, there were always gatherings, people coming together.

And so, whenever there was a group of more than probably ten or twelve people, Alfred would be the first one. And eventually became elected chief.

But he would always bring up that, you know, "this is our land. And um, you know, we gotta secure our future. We gotta secure our -- we gotta educate our kids." And, you know, all that aspects.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so that -- the people from Fairbanks who your grandfather kind of -- BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: -- got excited about it, and they came to Nenana. Again, it was a more localized effort. They weren’t out there looking for land claims statewide yet?

BEAR KETZLER: No. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: It was just the Nenana --?

BEAR KETZLER: Just the Nenana, and -- and -- KAREN BREWSTER: Nenana, Minto.

BEAR KETZLER: Right. Right. That wasn't, you know, until, you know, until --

And my mother started getting really involved, and she’s the one that kinda, you know, wanted to bring it in to a more broader aspect, you know.

So she had, you know, she had written letters to -- You know, the most, um, community or person in Alaska that everybody kinda knew that he was championing Native land claims movement was a Southeastern Indian, a Tlingit. And, uh --

KAREN BREWSTER: Was it William Paul? BEAR KETZLER: William Paul. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, so and Charlie and him, they communicated by mail and my mother. And so, they got a feel of what his, you know, his position was as well as --

Well, normally, his position was the position of the Tlingit and Haida clan.

And um, but there again, it was like for William Paul, I’m sure it was like, "Oh right, there’s another group out there." KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: You know, that’s also looking at this.

You know, it wasn’t until, you know, a number of years later where they kind of broke away from his philosophy of how things should be settled.

He wanted to go to the court. He wanted to take it to court.

I don’t know if he wanted to take it to the international court, but he -- but he was -- he had legal background. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: He was -- but he was an attorney, if I remember correctly. KAREN BREWSTER: Yes, he was.

BEAR KETZLER: Yep. And he wanted -- he felt that that was the way to do it, let’s set up a -- but -- KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it --

BEAR KETZLER: But Charlie Purvis told him, you know, I remember that very clear, was that the courts cannot, um, compensate with land.

And the Native people, they want the land. We don’t care about the money.

William was all about the money. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. BEAR KETZLER: Let’s give ’em a big settlement.

So that’s where they eventually parted -- kind of parted ways in a -- in a sense of what the Interior was going to do.

Because, like I said, my mother was kind of the one that organized the first Tanana Chief meeting in Nenana. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, that was in like March or April, during the dog mushing time.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Of ’61? BEAR KETZLER: Of ’62. KAREN BREWSTER: ’62. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. And so, that’s --

In fact, Robert Charlie was there. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: At that first meeting. Yeah, he just happened to be in town from Minto. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

BEAR KETZLER: And he said he heard about this meeting. KAREN BREWSTER: Dog racing?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. No, he was passing -- I think he was coming from Fairbanks. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. BEAR KETZLER: They had a dog team trail. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: There was a highway all over the place. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: And well-traveled.

And so yeah, he stopped with somebody. I forgot who was with him, and they stopped in Nenana.

’Cause I remember him commenting to me, that was one of the best meetings that he ever been to in a sense of it getting him involved. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. And that --

BEAR KETZLER: 'Cause he was able to go back to Minto and say, "God there’s a -- we had this wonderful meeting in Nenana." And where, you know --

And, at that time, they weren’t living in Minto where we know it today. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Oh. BEAR KETZLER: They were living on the Tanana River. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, the old Minto site? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, the old Minto. You know, and --

KAREN BREWSTER: Or what we now call Old Minto. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, and that was -- so that was before the big Dena’ Nena’ Henash? BEAR KETZLER: That was just before that, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: So that was --

BEAR KETZLER: 'Cause I was at that meeting when it was decided. I’m not sure who brought it up, but probably somebody like Robert Charlie, or somebody that was an elder.

’Cause somebody -- I believe that somebody was there said, you know, um, the traditional way of the Interior Natives in establishing boundaries and hunting and marriage and trading goods was done at the Nuch’a’lawoya.

And so, that’s -- You know, I remember my mother saying, "Well, what’s the Nuch’a’lawoya?" And um, and they, you know, so they described what it was.

And it was also athletics. It was kind of like the -- the -- you know, for the Greeks, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: The Olympics.

KAREN BREWSTER: Was it sort of -- it was like a trading festival, kind of?

BEAR KETZLER: It was a trading, you know, and the chiefs would marry off their daughters, and they'd marry off their sons.

I mean, it was a lot of -- over the years. And apparently, the last Nuch’a’lawoya, I think, was in like 1916, 1918, somewhere in there. Pretty -- pretty -- pretty early. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And so, that’s when it was like, "Wow, let’s -- " That’s what we need to bring back, the Nuch’a’lawoya. We need to bring that back. And we need to hold it in its traditional grounds. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And um, because Tanana was the most -- you know, geographically, the most logical place. I mean, it’s just down -- KAREN BREWSTER: It's where the rivers meet. BEAR KETZLER: Where the rivers meet.

And um, you know, so -- you know, pretty much any village could attend. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And, which, you know -- And today in our -- what we’ve learned, you know, going upstream, you know, with a canoe or even a big, a log raft, that was commonly done.

You know, I mean, I have stories from Alfred Starr that he ran a raft from down -- way downriver from the boneyard up to Tanana. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

BEAR KETZLER: You know. And they used dogs. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, they used dogs on the bank. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And they just raft up the whole family, all their goods and everything, right up the river.

KAREN BREWSTER: Which is -- I mean, it’s not like the bank is even. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: You know. BEAR KETZLER: Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: It goes up and down.

BEAR KETZLER: Well, over the years, they cleared it. I mean, it was -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, they had it -- BEAR KETZLER: -- it was part of a -- KAREN BREWSTER: -- like a trail? BEAR KETZLER: Like a trail. Yeah, they did all -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. Interesting. BEAR KETZLER: -- that stuff. Yeah. It was -- it was, um.

KAREN BREWSTER: That’s not easy, though. BEAR KETZLER: It was not easy, but they made, you know, good time, and, you know, it was just a method -- a way of traveling.

And, of course, downstream was, you load the dogs on the raft with you. And you -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: -- and you moved right along.

KAREN BREWSTER: But by 1962 when this meeting was going on, people had small outboard motors for the most part by that point?

BEAR KETZLER: Yes, outboard motors. Yeah, there were a lot of boats that came to that meeting.

Yeah, the whole Tanana was -- probably had never seen so many boats. You know, since the canoes were there. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, forty, fifty years earlier for the Nuch’a’lawoya.

’Cause they, you know, they -- well, they still today, they have like a, um, a athletic activities were canoe racing. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right.

BEAR KETZLER: Yep. Um, a long distance run. Um, let’s see, what other?

They had something like a rope pull-like aspect, too. I remember them. But yeah, they had all kinds of different -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: -- athletic activities.

Um, and um, so um, but yes, they had, you know, by ’62, they had little Johnson and -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: -- Scottie motors in that they came in on. KAREN BREWSTER: That helped. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So when that meeting happened --? BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: You were --? BEAR KETZLER: In Tanana. KAREN BREWSTER: In Tanana. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: You were six?

BEAR KETZLER: I was six years old, yeah. I was -- I had just turned six. I turned six in May.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you have memories of it?

BEAR KETZLER: Oh, yeah, very, very clear. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: When it was --? BEAR KETZLER: ’Cause there were so many characters that were there that you couldn’t forget, you know.

And I remember Ruth Charles really well. She’s one of the most, um, you know, persons I remember the most. And it’s just because she was a wonderful cook.

And not only that, being an outspoken lady, and um -- And she was a delegate from Dot Lake. That -- She was a white lady.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, she was?

BEAR KETZLER: She was a white lady. You know, full-blooded white. I’m not sure where she was from. I think she was originally from Washington state, Seattle area or something. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Her, uh -- she married, um, her husband Charles, Carl Charles, yeah. They had one -- they had a couple of kids. They adopted two.

But Ted Charles is their son, if you ever met Ted. KAREN BREWSTER: No. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, he’s a little older than I am.

But, anyway, Chief Andrew Isaac, when he, you know, learned of this aspect, he wanted somebody who could communicate by --

You know, she was a really good typist, as well. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. Ok. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. She was, like my mother was the same. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: She had a little bit of skills of, you know, of at least knowing how to operate a typewriter, which were very rare to have -- but if you had a typewriter.

There was one in Nenana that went from house to house to house to house, you know. It was like a sewing machine. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Went everywhere.

But the -- so yeah, chief wanted her to be --

As well as she was already pretty outspoken already herself. She had -- if you look at the Tanana Chiefs minutes of that first meeting in ’62, even though they don’t have their names, but listening to her over the years, I know exactly where this resolution came from. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Which, you know, she was always really hell-bent on Native hire. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, they were building that road through Tok, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Running through -- And up -- keeping it up grade in Tana (Tanacross?) --

And I remember her saying, there were no Native people hired. We need to hire more Native.

And from that influence, from that Chiefs meeting, there were State of Alaska -- we were a state by then. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Were -- hired Native people, and they retired from DOT. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: It was amazing.

Another was schools, village schools. She was very much an advocate of village schools.

In fact, I wrote a letter years later to the superintendent of the school district in Tok and, you know, said that the Dot Lake school should be in her name. And I don’t know that -- I don’t think they have yet, but it should be the Ruth -- ’cause without her clearly, without her influence, that school wouldn’t have been there.

The Northway school wouldn’t have been there. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: The Tok school was already there. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Tetlin -- Does Tetlin has a school?

BEAR KETZLER: Tetlin has a school. But, pretty much all the schools, you know, the new schools that were built in the '70’s, middle '70’s to the '80’s, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Were primarily from her influence of putting rural schools, you know, into all communities, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: No matter how big or small. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: But uh, yeah. So I could, you know, or -- got to know her enough, I could read the resolutions, the ones that she had introduced and -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: -- and then championed.

KAREN BREWSTER: And who else do you remember from that meeting?

BEAR KETZLER: Oh, ok. There, um, let’s see. Matthew Titus. Chief Matthew Titus from Minto.

And uh, yeah, he -- they called him -- His nickname in the Native community, it was -- it translated to Bear Killer. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: So, of course, when somebody like that, you know, they would whisper to me, "Oh, that’s Bear Killer."

You know, so of course, you want to know, like, why is that, you know? KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: But he was not a big guy or nothing, just stout and everything. But he had told me once, you know, many years later after I first met him, that he figured he killed like 80 bears. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. BEAR KETZLER: With a spear. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: You know, hand-to-hand combat. KAREN BREWSTER: He was good.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, he -- he was truly -- He earned his nickname.

And so, everybody kind of like, beware of him because if he can take on a bear, he’ll take on anybody. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: And what’s he -- that’s what’s his persona.

KAREN BREWSTER: And was he like that? BEAR KETZLER: Oh, he was. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: Oh yeah, he would tell me, you know, I -- "Bear, if you don’t do this, I’m going to kick your butt." And he would say, "I may be an old man, but I can kick your butt. You know that, right?"

You know, he would, like, jump out of the couch like he’s ready to go. He was a character. But he meant it, though. I mean, he wanted his young to do things. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: To be, you know, a positive influence in his community. So to a lot of us younger people, he would talk that way, and, you know.

And um, let’s see. I remember -- You know, of course, I remember Robert Charlie -- KAREN BREWSTER: Robert Charlie. BEAR KETZLER: -- being there, you know.

There’s a, uh, Fredson, Bill Fredson. He was from Metlakatla area.

There was a whole group of us that flew on one particular flight out of Fairbanks. And so, there’s an airplane shot of us and the Wien airplane. KAREN BREWSTER: Right, right. BEAR KETZLER: And I’m standing there.

And so, I remember standing there and getting the picture taken ’cause my mother kind of like, you know, said hey, we need to turn around here.

And Ted Hetzel, you know, was there, and I’m pretty sure he took that shot.

In fact, I'm -- almost know he is 'cause there were no other nice professional shot. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: Of the whole airplane and all the passengers getting ready to get on. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Those planes then were 28 seats or something, so there was probably like, close to 28 of us sitting out there. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: Standing to get on the airplane.

And that was the leaving, you know, Tanana, after being there for three or four days, so.

And uh, but -- and -- and, you know, and then the nightly events, you know for -- They had to have -- they would have traditional potlatch and dancing. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And then they would lay out -- You know, in the old days, they would lay out skins, you know, blankets, all on the ground. You never walked on the ground. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: You know. So it was -- you know, you didn’t get the food dirty or nothing. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: So it was, yeah. It was probably one of the last kind of traditional times, maybe of a -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: -- true super gathering of Native people. But they did it the best they could as far as the memory-wise of a real, you know, a real potlatch.

I remember the Episcopal priest and his wife that were there in Tanana. If I remember correctly, they burned up in a fire. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. BEAR KETZLER: Soon after the -- that next winter or something like that.

KAREN BREWSTER: So they were the priest in Tanana? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, they hosted us. That’s where I stayed. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

BEAR KETZLER: At their -- at the place that burned up. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. I remember -- I’ve seen their grave. I’ve been to the graveyard in Tanana, and they’re buried in the Native graveyard. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, that’s nice.

BEAR KETZLER: And um, so. Yeah, that was a tragedy, definitely.

And let’s see, who all, yeah, haven’t I?

KAREN BREWSTER: There’s that one photograph of your dad up at a table up in front. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: With Wilma Ketzler.

BEAR KETZLER: Uh, Wilma. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, no, it’s not -- BEAR KETZLER: Or Clarabelle, probably. KAREN BREWSTER: It’s Clarabelle. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: It’s mislabeled as Wilma. It’s Clarabelle. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, it’s Clarabelle. Yeah, Clarabelle Charlie, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. BEAR KETZLER: She was the secretary, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: And -- BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so, but it -- and she was from Minto, then?

BEAR KETZLER: No, I don't -- she was raised in Nenana. Her -- yeah. She might have been born in Minto, thinking about it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, maybe Charlie was maybe a married name.

BEAR KETZLER: But -- No, no. Uh, no, she’s Clarabelle. That’s Eli and -- Eli’s daughter. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: Eli and Winnie. Winnie was her mother. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: She’s one of the older girls, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: She’s still alive, actually. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. BEAR KETZLER: I think she lives in Las Vegas. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, she’s, you know, probably, what, in her, just a few years younger than my mother, so she’d be getting close to 80. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: My mother’s 80, going to be 85 this year, I think, 86.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. And then, so that was Clarabelle. She was the secretary. BEAR KETZLER: Yep.

KAREN BREWSTER: But the name Wilma Ketzler, she’s -- was married to one of your uncles? Is that how that works? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, to my cousin. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, to your cousin. BEAR KETZLER: Charlie, to Charlie Ketzler. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. Yeah.

And then in the meeting-wise, as far as I did go to some of the meetings, not all of them. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. I was going to ask if you did. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: Because I would sit back with my grandfather in the back, and then when they’d ask for white people to leave, you know, I remember some of them saying, "Oh Charlie, you don’t -- You kow, you could stay."

But no, Charlie said, "Nope, nope, no. I’m going to -- I"m gonna leave ’cause I want you guys, you know -- "

He didn’t want to let the other white people that were leaving and felt that they had to. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: You know, um.

There wasn’t going to be any special white people staying in the meeting or whatever. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: But ’cause I -- that’s when I first remember, and I’m sure I met him, the lead doctor for the hospital there. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: His name was Dr. James. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, and his -- and his -- I don’t know if they were married yet then, let’s see. Hm. Yeah, she was from Fort Yukon. A real, real beautiful lady.

KAREN BREWSTER: Is that Bill James? BEAR KETZLER: Dr. James, yeah. William. KAREN BREWSTER: He -- he -- Yeah, he worked -- he came --

BEAR KETZLER: He retired from Tanana Chiefs -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: -- as their lead doctor. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok, yeah, I know who he is. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Or was.

BEAR KETZLER: Yep. He was -- got stationed in Tanana under, you know, I think it was called PHS then. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: Public Health Service.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yep. There was a big hospital there.

BEAR KETZLER: There was a very big hospital, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. But, so why were the white people asked to leave?

BEAR KETZLER: When they were talking about delicate issues and stuff, they felt, you know --

Now, the delegate from Dot Lake, they said she didn’t have to leave. But all the non-delegates and non-whites, or the non-Natives -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: -- had to leave.

Uh, but yeah, when they -- when they decided to talk about the land and what they were -- they didn’t really want, you know, the um -- ’cause it was a big mystery, you know.

Even in the papers, if you go back and look under Seeden (referring to Snedden), the news -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: He was a newspaper guy here, who owned the newspaper.

Um, we have a, I don’t know where it is now, but I read a letter he wrote to the district attorney, then, who was Ted Stevens. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And he was saying, like, he didn’t use the word “f,” but he said, "Who in the hell’s this guy Al Ketzler, Sr.?" And, he’s riling up these Indians, and I’m really afraid these Indians getting too far on.

Nothing specific in the letter, but, you know, that -- looking back on it, the non-Native community didn’t really know quite, you know, what the whole aspect was about, because it was still being developed. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, the whole concept, ok. Yep.

Alfred, you know, Starr, said this is our land. Ok. You know, Charlie Purvis believes it.

Let’s see, that was -- Yeah, that was even after that state judge came down to Nenana. KAREN BREWSTER: Mary Ann. BEAR KETZLER: Mary Alice Miller. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, Mary Alice Miller.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, and heard the tribe of Nenana present their case. You know, is this something that can hold up in a court of law? And she said, "Yes it can."

And that was like -- ’cause I remember them leaving the meeting just jubilated. My mother was just like, "Wow. This is -- this is so neat." You know, it was kind of like a validation that, yeah, we’re really on the right track. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: And so, you know, so anyway, um, and, of course, getting all the tribes together, it was a lot more complicated than what I think the original delegates in the meeting in Nenana or the little forming group in Nenana -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: -- had thought.

’Cause there was a whole lot more issues that they'd ever imagined.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. It wasn’t just -- it turned out not to be just land?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. It wasn’t just land. It was the Rampart Dam. It was, um, the education, the jobs, the training. Um, you know, just all aspects of transportation, you know, the mail.

I mean, there was just the whole aspects that's -- you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, and so this meeting was organized within the Native community. Did the non-Natives know that it was going to happen and --?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, they’d heard about it ’cause they seen the fliers that went to the vill -- you know, somehow somebody would get information over.

KAREN BREWSTER: And to the newspaper?

BEAR KETZLER: To the newspaper, you know. And so, yeah, this meeting in Tanana. And, of course, that was kind of a political year ’cause I remember Grant, Grant Pearson, was the -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: In the House of Representatives representing Tanana and Nenana and that area.

Grant was from Nenana. That’s when I first met him.

KAREN BREWSTER: Is that the Grant Pearson who was at Denali? That’s a different Grant Pearson. BEAR KETZLER: Hm. Let’s see, he was -- I got pictures of him. He was a short, heavyset guy. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I don't know.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, he -- he -- Somebody that I would say that Jack Coghill probably got into politics. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Jack was kind of the -- in the non-Native community, the kingmaker, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. In Nenana?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, Nenana. He got Swanson -- what was his name? Red Swanson (Leslie E. "Red" Swanson). He got him -- He got -- Coghill arranged for him to get the Native votes to win. And, you know -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: Jack was, um -- surprisingly, 'cause my grandfather is the one that started the Republican Party in Nenana. The first one, you know.

And Jack -- I don’t know if they -- you know, in those days, there wasn’t the emphasis, you know, on parties. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, the Democrat, Republican hadn’t hit to Alaska yet. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Because we hadn’t been a state.

And but, you know, Charlie, he called himself a Lincoln Republican. And which meant to him some very much -- very fundamental principles.

You know, I don’t know what he would think now, knowing more about him. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Really his -- his um, you know, some of the things that he did that we know now that wasn’t known back -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: -- you know, fifty years ago.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and the Republican Party has changed. Well, all -- BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, it has. KAREN BREWSTER: And all of politics has changed.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. It has changed, and um, so yeah. And Charlie started the Republican Party ’cause he got my dad involved in the Republican Party.

And my dad actually ran against, I think, probably against Grant Pearson, probably, who was on the Democratic side. And, but, so yeah.

So anyway, I think, yeah, my point was, that Coghill was kind of the -- you know, became real involved in the Republican Party and -- and --

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and he would’ve certainly heard about the meeting being planned ’cause it was in Nenana. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: And so, yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. And that time and that meeting in Tanana, it was -- it was like, Grant Pearson, he wanted to be there, and they invited BIA officials that -- from the Fairbanks office. Which I knew them.

I knew them, had met some of them before they went to -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: -- before they went to Tanana.

’Cause we’d go to the courthouse. Let’s see, their -- oh their office used to be over in the bowling alley. Did you know that? BIA?

KAREN BREWSTER: In what is now the bowling alley?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Mm-mm. Downstairs where that Chinese restaurant, yeah, that was. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, I didn’t know that.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, that was -- KAREN BREWSTER: I mean, I knew that building used to be the --

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, it was all government offices down there. Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. I just remembered that myself. ’Cause that’s -- I was thinking, well, where’s the BIA?

’Cause there was a Pete Sixgun-Killer. He was an Indian from -- a Sioux Indian. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: He played, um -- he was a very famous basketball player for the Air Force. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. He got to travel a lot. He then he was a big, big Indian, but he was also very heavyset.

And you give him a basketball, and, my god, that guy could move. You never seen something so big. But he was, you know, that’s my first impressions of him. He was one heck of a basketball player.

And so, yeah, all those, you know, not -- but -- some of those, um, bureaucrats, you know, the federal government, made it there. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: As well as there was even a presentation of the Rampart Dam that came there, too.

KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. And what was the response to that?

BEAR KETZLER: Well, they wanted to sell, to sell the concept. And it wasn’t -- I remember really well in a sense that -- and I wish I could recite it. It is -- I’m sure it’s recited somewhere, but after they made the presentation, and they were asked to -- fielding questions in the crowd.

And the chief of, um, Tanana. Let’s see, the chief was Arlie Charlie. Uh, but Alfred Grant. I’m not sure what capacity Alfred Grant was there. He might’ve been second chief or something. Or he might’ve been first chief, and Arlie wasn’t the chief yet then.

But anyway, Alfred asked a question, you know, "Ok, if I got this right, you want to build this big dam, and about four or five years later, the water’s going re -- gonna, you know, make its way up, and it’s going to flood Beaver, and it’s going to flood Stevens Village, and it’s gonna flood -- " There was another community up on the river.

KAREN BREWSTER: Birch --?

BEAR KETZLER: Deadman. It’s not there anymore. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

BEAR KETZLER: Um, then it’s going to make its way to Fort Yukon and flood Fort Yukon.

So they had just made a commitment an hour or two before that on another discussion about building -- there was a discussion about schools.

And so, the BIA official and -- and Grant were saying, "Oh, yeah, thanks for bringing that up."

Percy Herbert was the person from Fort Yukon. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: He said, "Well, our schools in Tanana, you know, we -- we -- we can’t even hardly keep the fire going enough, hot enough to keep the school warm. And the kids have to dress -- and it’s an old building that the military left." And it was --

Anyway it was a real dilapidated school, really deplorable.

And so, you know, as a politician type person, "I’m going to get you a new school. We’re going to build you a new school." Told Percy, "That’s going to be on our priority when we get to the legislature. We’re going to get fund money."

And so, Alfred then, you know, on the discussion of the dam, the Rampart Dam, he says, "That’s very interesting, or so nice of you that you’re going to build my compadres, or he didn’t use compadres, but my friends in Fort Yukon a new school only to have a few years later come to have it flooded."

You know. So it was like, he brought up, like, what’s the idiocy of that. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: You know.

And so anyway, when he brought up that point, and the way Alfred would speak, he was a very eloquent speaker.

You know, everybody just laughed. Just -- some people fell out of their seats, it was so funny the way he -- the way he kind of illustrated it and embarrassed -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: -- you know, the fellow that was promoting or presenting the ideas of this Rampart Dam.

’Cause I remember other questions that people asked was like, "Well, what are you going to do with all that power anyway?" And they really hadn’t thought that far ahead.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, really? BEAR KETZLER: They -- Nuh-uh. When they -- They didn’t really -- "Well, we’re gonna uh -- we’re gonna create an aluminum factory."

Aluminum takes a lot of electricity to make aluminum. You know, so, I mean, they could’ve gone on and on. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Like, where are you going to get the aluminum from? Where are you -- you know, I mean, there was -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: It was just -- And um, at that time, Tennessee Power Authority was already up here in Alaska. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right.

BEAR KETZLER: Promoting the idea. Yeah, they were -- they were the go-to lead experts on building big -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. BEAR KETZLER: -- power dams in the United States.

And if you look at your history, just a few years before this dam project in Alaska was being discussed, Russia had just finished the biggest dam in the world. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

BEAR KETZLER: So it was more of a competition. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Of why Alaska was so hellbent. It wasn’t really Alaska, 'cause Alaska really didn’t have any -- it wasn’t even formed here. It wasn’t -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: It was -- this was from Washington, DC. But, you know, somebody in Washington, DC, said, "Hey, the Russians just built the largest dam in the world. Where can we build a bigger dam?"

And when they looked around the United States, it was either Mississippi, um, which you can’t really dam. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: You’d flood, you know, half the continental United States.

They, "Alaska. The Yukon River!"

KAREN BREWSTER: Yukon’s the next biggest river. BEAR KETZLER: That’s the next biggest river in the country. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: So let’s build a dam there. And so, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So were the proceedings at the conference conducted in English or in, uh, Athabascan?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, most of it was in English. Yeah, pretty much everybody spoke -- yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: ’Cause I was thinking, some of those elders probably didn’t speak much English.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, you know, and as far as the leadership then, they weren’t -- they were young men. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, they were? BEAR KETZLER: Alfred Grant was young. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, I mean, Robert (Charlie) here he was young. My dad was young.

KAREN BREWSTER: So even though the chiefs, maybe -- BEAR KETZLER: Noll nuts (nickname for one of the Nollner's?) was young.

KAREN BREWSTER: Benedict?

BEAR KETZLER: And Benedict Arnold, or Benedict Jones was young. I mean, they’re -- they’re all my dad’s -- Yeah, you see, he’s older than my dad.

KAREN BREWSTER: Robert Charlie? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, I think Robert died. KAREN BREWSTER: Yes.

BEAR KETZLER: He’s probably like five, six years older than my dad. And I think they’re about exactly the same age.

KAREN BREWSTER: How old’s your dad? BEAR KETZLER: He’s going to be 90 here. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. BEAR KETZLER: On his next birthday.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, you said you just -- yeah, were celebrating. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. So, um, yeah. So the people -- the leaders were speaking English, um --?

BEAR KETZLER: And that was the age group there, too. He spoke his language. He speaks a language, he did not.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, your dad did not speak his language? BEAR KETZLER: No, huh-uh. I mean, not -- not -- not fluently.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, but Robert and Benedict did?

BEAR KETZLER: They did. ’Cause only if you lived -- you know, if you lived on the highway, like in Tok or whatever, you know, more likely men in his age group didn’t speak, or spoke very little of it. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: But if you were from Fort Yukon, or Minto, or Nulato, Kaltag, yeah, they -- they spoke -- KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. BEAR KETZLER: -- the language pretty good.

But yeah, but that age group of my dad’s, that’s when they really started to split off of not, you know, not speaking.

The missions were still going strong. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: You know. The Nenana Mission was going up. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: When I was born, it was just at the tail end. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Of the mission in Nenana.

They had pretty much shut it down by -- Let’s see, I remember it fell in the river in like, ’64. The whole building, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. BEAR KETZLER: The whole building just -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

BEAR KETZLER: Fell into the river and floated down underneath the railroad bridge. And everybody -- the whole town was out watching it. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah. BEAR KETZLER: This big two-story --

KAREN BREWSTER: It was just from erosion from the river? BEAR KETZLER: From erosion, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Yep, that whole area.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I always wondered where it was. And that’s why I’ve never seen it, ’cause it’s not there anymore. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, right, it’s not there. Yeah. There’s a lot of pictures of it and everything.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, one of the -- and I know -- so after the 1962 conference, I know your parents continued to be very active.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, well, I mean, he was -- My dad -- KAREN BREWSTER: Your dad.

BEAR KETZLER: And then at that time, they had decided that, ok, to be a legal structure, we needed to form a legal, uh, incorporated, you know, to be a legal entity so that people could have their titles. And um, and to conduct business.

So they elected, you know, Al Ketzler as the -- they wanted to call him the chief, you know, the presiding big chief.

But his feelings, you know, that’s -- Unfortunately, you don’t get to interview him ’cause tha -- he told me he didn’t want to be -- that the white man really didn’t understand the chiefness, what it really means.

'Cause to be a chief in those days, you know, in the traditional way, it’s a lot of responsibility. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, I mean, you’re responsible for -- and he didn’t want that responsibility, either.

I mean, he knew and understand it, but -- ’cause he was actually a chief in Nenana himself. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: And if it wasn’t for his brother, Richard, who later became chief after my dad, ’cause my uncle Richard did all his work. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. BEAR KETZLER: You know, taking care of things. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Taking care of business, you know. Cutting firewood, hauling water. All that kind of stuff that a chief is responsible for. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

BEAR KETZLER: Or delegating other people to do, so.

KAREN BREWSTER: I didn’t realize the chief was responsible for all that.

BEAR KETZLER: I mean, the real tradition of a chief. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Somebody like -- if you know the history of, you know, my dad’s auntie, she was married to Chief Thomas, but, you know, the responsibility that he had, I mean, and how he took it, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: ’Cause it is illustrated in books and stuff like that. It’s, you know, he would organize the hunting parties. And "Ok, you’re going to go off and do this today. You’re going to go fishing. You’re going to go get firewood."

I mean, it was -- a chief had lots of authority and responsibility. And you never snapped back at a chief. KAREN BREWSTER: No.

BEAR KETZLER: You never questioned or nothing, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And, but by the end, my dad realized that that aspect of it was gone in the Native community. That kind of respect that a real chief had, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And so.

BEAR KETZLER: Chief Thomas, uh, Chief Isaac was -- which my dad didn’t really know him that well during the early, early times. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: But, you know, he was Chief Isaac. And Peter John are the chiefs that I would say in my era still had that aura. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: I mean, had that power. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Of what a --

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it sounds like Chief Thomas maybe did, too? BEAR KETZLER: Oh, Chief did, too. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, those three. BEAR KETZLER: Oh, he most definitely. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: He was too powerful. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: According to other tribes. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah. BEAR KETZLER: Around him, yeah. He was too, you know, too into himself.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and so that -- so out of that meeting in Tanana came the decision to form -- officially form -- BEAR KETZLER: Officially form -- KAREN BREWSTER: Tanana Chiefs Conference? BEAR KETZLER: Tanana Chiefs Conference, yeah.

Dena’ Hena -- it wasn’t called Tanana Chiefs Conference. It was called Dena’ Nena’ Henash.

Which in the translation is, "the land speaks." KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: That’s what it meant.

So when you look at the incorporating papers in Juneau. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: You would see Dena’ Nena’ Henash. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: It wasn’t until the later on in the -- in the -- gee whiz, yeah, I guess later in the '60’s, the newspaper, you know -- just everybody complained about it being so long.

You know, ’cause right now, it’s not even called Tanana Chiefs, anymore. KAREN BREWSTER: ’Cause Tanana -- BEAR KETZLER: It’s called TCC.

KAREN BREWSTER: I was going to say, ’cause Tanana Chiefs Conference is just as long.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Well, that’s even, you know, reduced down a lot from -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: From what it used to be.

And um, so yeah, they incorporated under that name, and um, which I have the record somewhere. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: The incorporating papers. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: That were filed.

And so, they were, you know, off and running. And Al, Sr. had the authority to -- and the responsibility to carry it forward.

KAREN BREWSTER: And to do what, to -- to -- for land claims or --?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. To -- Yeah, I mean, based on the resolutions and the power that was given and a direction, yes.

You know, the 32 communities, was it? 28 communities that first attended the meeting were -- and there were other villages were there that were not in the TCC region, either. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, there was probably a good half a dozen or so. I know what’s his name from Copper Center was there. Another from Metlakatla. Another from --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it’s interesting that Metlakatla -- I know Copper Center ’cause they had a Alaska Native Brotherhood group. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: In Copper Center.

BEAR KETZLER: Yep. But they were other ones that came in, and um, you know, and they went back, relayed.

Mr. Gray, I forget what Gray. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, um. BEAR KETZLER: He went back and he became very active in his -- you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Nick.

BEAR KETZLER: Nick Gray, yeah. In his community, as well as even in -- when it was finally incorporated under ANCSA, you know. And his village corporation, he's involved in that.

And some of these guys, you know, you know, progressed right on, you know. You know, say similar to --

I think the best example is, um, the -- she was really involved from Sitka in the Tlingit and Haida land claims movement. And then, you know, she became head of Sealaska.

And then -- but she's also involved, very involved in Shee Atiká, which is the village corporation of Sitka. So a lot of these early on leaders moved on. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: The Interior, here, it was taken over by kind of a whole new group. Johnny Sackett and Tim Wallis, and -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: -- you know, people like that that, you know, got involved in the politics and --

KAREN BREWSTER: Of -- of once it was actually officially ANCSA?

BEAR KETZLER: After official, you know, this would be after, you know, pretty much going into ’72, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

So that was after passage. Well, Johnny Sackett, wasn’t he involved in the efforts to get ANCSA passed? Or he was only involved once --

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, he was a college student here at the university, and um, and he actually -- how gotten involved, to my knowledge. Now, I haven’t, you know, I haven’t heard any recordings like this from Johnny being interviewed and stuff.

But uh, you know, he was a college student, and they were having a centennial. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. BEAR KETZLER: You know, Alaska.

KAREN BREWSTER: Alaska Centennial, that would’ve been ’67. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, that’s when they created the, uh. KAREN BREWSTER: Alaskaland.

BEAR KETZLER: The village. There was a pretty good-sized village creation there. KAREN BREWSTER: For Alaskaland?

BEAR KETZLER: For Alaskaland. And uh, that’s -- he was solicited as a village boy, you know. And he -- that’s how he kinda got involved in the community, on a state, or city-wide and state-wide.

And then, you know, then he also became involved in the Native land claims. So that was, to me, from ’62 to '65, a lot other things that had happened before people like him came along. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And then he still was a college student. He was still on the perimeters.

And, you know, so, it wasn’t until, to me, I would say in the '70’s, early '70’s, before ANCSA, that you really started to see his, you know, his involvement and -- and support.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, yeah, and, you know, I’ve heard a lot for, um, families of Native leaders during claims time, you know, the hardships. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: And the effect on the household, 'cause parents were gone a lot, or they were super busy or -- BEAR KETZLER: Right, right.

KAREN BREWSTER: And I was wondering what your experience might have been?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that’s, you know -- it wasn’t until a nurse came to Nenana. It would’ve been after the flood, so that was in ’67. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And, you know, she was -- a nurse would come to our school and check us all us kids out. And somehow, she was connected to the Tanana Chiefs.

Either Tanana Chiefs kind of organized it, even though Tanana Chiefs wasn’t really a major administrative structure yet, you know.

That didn’t really happen until they got the contract for health aides, you know, in the later '60’s.

But anyway, so a nurse came to Nenana, and so I went into the room where she was getting checked up, and she looked at my name, and she said, "Alfred Ke -- your dad is Al, huh?" And I said, "Yeah."

And she says, "You know, your dad’s a very, very famous man." And I said, "Really?" And so, I remember that kind of stuck.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Um, because it was hard on your dad. BEAR KETZLER: Yes.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, yeah. And so I was won -- you know -- Your mom -- I mean, they were still married at the time. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, they were still married. And that was -- KAREN BREWSTER: And she talked a little bit about that. But --

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, it was really stressful for him, because -- You know, and when he was -- and he traveled a lot, I mean, he was always on the road, promoting within the Native community.

’Cause he not only head of Tanana Chiefs, there was always other people out there to, you know, undermine his -- his -- what he’s doing or what he was not doing.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Within the Native community? BEAR KETZLER: Within the Native community, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: It’s -- nothing’s changed on that, of course.

But, you know, Minto, I remember one time, my mother had to write an eloquent letter to the chief, to the council there, which Frank -- Richard Frank was the chief, and kind of put him back in his place, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Stevens Village is another rogue kind of a village, you might say, and ’cause they were crucial when they decided to file the blanket claim.

And Stevens Village had other people outside the community influence them that, you know, "Don’t you dare." You know.

KAREN BREWSTER: And that was in response to the pipeline?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, right. Yeah. There were oil interests. There was a lot of interest, and Stevens Village was a crucial on that.

KAREN BREWSTER: ’Cause they were the closest. BEAR KETZLER: So, yeah.

And I don’t know if, I mean, if my mother’s interview talked about that or my dad.

KAREN BREWSTER: The blanket claim?

BEAR KETZLER: The blanket claim, but how Stevens Village, you know, decided to switch and change their mind and become rock solid, "Yes."

KAREN BREWSTER: No. I mean, I would've hoped that I’d be able to talk to your dad and we could go into that. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Right. KAREN BREWSTER: And it may still happen. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: But if you could explain what you know about it.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, well, I mean it was -- I remember my dad and mom strategizing on it, and they were talking to Bill Byler, who was, you know, my dad's support.

Now Bill got involved through Association on American Indian Affairs.

And um, he actually took over for LaVerne Madigan. LaVerne Madigan was here, too, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: At the conference, right? BEAR KETZLER: At the conference, yep.

Which, in the Native national realm, that was -- she was the biggest -- You know, that was before other American Indian national organizations were -- they might’ve been created, but they were really nobody.

But the Association was a formidable force. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: In the sense that they had money. They had New York money, backing. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: From all kinds of different communities. I got to see, uh, the K-Mart family. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. BEAR KETZLER: The K family. You know, the heirs of that are major contributions to the American Indians.

Now they don’t have an ounce of Indian in ’em. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: But they have sat on their board.

And I met Jessica Crest. KAREN BREWSTER: Crest. Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: The Crest family.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, well, yeah, and unfortunately, LaVerne died shortly after. BEAR KETZLER: Shortly after, in a terrible accident. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: So Bill took over.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, yeah, and you have men -- I had wanted to ask you about Bill. You have mentioned him. BEAR KETZLER: Yes.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so, talk more about him and his role.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, well, he -- you know, he took over as association for, you know, after LaVerne. I’m not sure how long he lasted.

I also think under Bill’s leadership at that time, he hired a young attorney fresh out of law school, and um, Hirsch. Bert Hirsch. Bertram Hirsch.

Um, which he is, um, considered probably the most recognized name in Indian law. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Little Jewish boy.

I knew his mother. His mother lived to be, gee, close to a hundred. And she stayed with my wife and I before -- many years later, you know, back in the middle, middle '90’s, yeah, is the last time I seen her when she came to Alaska to visit.

But so, you know, Bert, he was a good strategist. Him and my mom really clicked. They knew how to talk to each other.

And in fact, I think Bert, or not Bert, but Bill would use my mom to influence my dad. He would say, you know, "Hey DeLois, I think you ought to, you know, ought to tell Al to take this position, whatever, and 'cause --"

If you know my dad, he’s a very reserved fellow, you know, so -- and he’s hard to even read, you know. Sometimes you can, you know, if you’re presenting things to him.

And I think that’s one of his unique negotiating abilities is that he’s a poker player-type person. You just don’t know what level, what’s going to come back, or whatever. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. BEAR KETZLER: But --

KAREN BREWSTER: But he would respond to something from your mom? BEAR KETZLER: From my mom. KAREN BREWSTER: Better than from Bill Byler?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, my mom would beat him over the head if she had to. Yeah, but --

So anyway, Stevens Village had come out publicly that they weren’t going to be a part of the -- which they were right in the corridor. They were part of the pipeline, so.

KAREN BREWSTER: So the blanket claim was that the lands that the pipeline was going to go over were Native lands? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Were Interior Native lands? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Yep. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: That basically was Stevens Village and their blessing on the blanket claim, um, would seal the fate of the pipeline ever being, you know, ever going to another level. It’d end up in federal court.

That was the biggest concern was, oh, it’d end up in federal court and could be a Supreme Court decision, so you’re looking at five to ten years. And um, (phone rings in the background)

And it would take, you know, years and years to settle. And by that time, you know, in the -- towards the middle to -- going on to the late '60’s, the pipeline aspect was well on its way. Now, a lot of people didn’t know about it. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: It wasn’t until, you know, kind of ’72 and all of a sudden, you know, engineers and moving companies, and, you know, Fairbanks was just bombarded. By ’75, it was, you know, things were well on their way.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, yeah, but people who, um, know the history of ANCSA is that the reason that it was able to kind of move forward is because of that, um, the stay on the lands and saying, hey, you can’t build that pipeline 'til you settle -- BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- the land claims. The land freeze that Secretary Udall did. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, yeah. Well, there's --

KAREN BREWSTER: So that kind of -- the blanket claim instigated that?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. It most definitely instigated it, but it was one of the best things that ever happened. And so, Bill --

KAREN BREWSTER: And that was your dad’s idea? Or Bill?

BEAR KETZLER: Well, no. It was kinda Bill. Bill and my mom and dad, they strategized, and Bill said, this is what we need to do.

And so um, they um, said ok, we’re going to hold this meeting in Stevens, and you arrange a charter airplane. We’re going to bring a camera person in. We’re going to bring a -- what’s that term they use for somebody recording meetings? In those days.

KAREN BREWSTER: Court recorder?

BEAR KETZLER: It's not a court recorder, but it was somebody who specializes just in recording, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: I mean, not everybody could record. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Those were on those reel-to-reels. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: ’Cause I -- we used to have them. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: The minutes of that in our house.

And uh, so, and we’re going to go up there, and we’re going to call the -- you know, have the council there, and we’re going to, you know, tell them, ok, you’re going to be on camera, and you’re going to be there, and we’re going to make this presentation to you.

And so, anyway, there was a big effort to, you know, prevent the meeting from even happening. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And I had heard later on some of the, um -- the chief then and why he was so influenced by somebody who -- Oh yeah, Bill Carlo was the one that stopped that meeting, you know, had put the bug in their ear. KAREN BREWSTER: That was --

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. To -- to, you know, "You guys are just going to stop the oil pipeline, and, you know, and we need that pipeline." Alaska, and all that kind of stuff.

So yeah, it was Bill. And so he had an inline with the chief.

So anyway, my dad and Bill Byler came up. And they all flew up to Stevens Village and set everything up.

The council came in, and um, kind of like, you know, put ’em on the spot. And on the spot in the sense that they realized that they will be in the spotlight. It’s being recorded. It’s being videoed. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, there’s a big camera there. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: In those days, they were monster things. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And so, they went in executive session, and they came back out and said, "We’re on."

KAREN BREWSTER: So they joined the suit? BEAR KETZLER: They joined the suit, yeah.

And so, you know, I think Bill, if I remember correctly, my mom might’ve even have mentioned it, he gets the credit, you know, for that particular strategy of getting, you know, getting them -- that community on board. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: ’Cause it really changed -- ’Cause I remember, oh, after that meeting, it was in the winter time, so by that following spring, there was a stranger, that when I woke up in the morning our house --

And we were living in a big house. My dad had -- it wasn’t finished yet, but he had started building this big, one, two, three, four, like a six, seven-bedroom house for all those kids.

There was a stranger sleeping on the -- in a nice suit, and he was, you know, um -- And anyway, um, my dad, you know, when he got up and stuff, and my dad said, "I want to introduce you to the president of ARCO." KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. BEAR KETZLER: Harold Hines.

And uh, so Harold, I don’t know if he was the first. Those are things you have to ask my dad, but he came to my dad and said, "We’re going to support you Indians. We want you to get that land." KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. So that brought on, you know, by that (inaudible) came, had got the oil companies behind the Natives. In a sense it was just -- to the oil companies, it was simple. Settle with the Natives, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Get it settled, that’s, you know -- Um, we don’t care, you know, what aspect of it. We’ll make the deals to cross the land, you know, and --

KAREN BREWSTER: 'Cause they wanted to build that pipeline.

BEAR KETZLER: They wanted to get that pipeline that -- You know, by then, had already been, you know, already been pretty much saying that’s exactly what’s going to happen. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: So then I got, you know, the years later, I got to serve with Harold. Um, you know, not as president of ARCO, but he was hired by the state legislature to head up the Alaska propane project. Pulling propane off the North Slope and -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: -- getting it to Alaska markets. So that was --

KAREN BREWSTER: That’s why I’ve heard his name.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. It was, really -- You know, not a brilliant man, but a really -- he’s artistic. He’s a really good artist.

But um, yeah. I never did really -- I don’t know if he’s still alive or not. KAREN BREWSTER: I don’t know. BEAR KETZLER: I’d have to -- I'd have to check. But --

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, so um, one of the things you and I talked about when we were with your mom. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: And over -- over the phone, is this idea that there were -- um the Native land claims movement was assisted by non-Natives. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: And they had allies and advocates.

BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. Oh, yeah. In the beginning, I say there were more non-Natives supporting of it than the Native community.

And in the Native community, it’s not -- wasn’t that they weren’t against it, they just didn’t understand it, you know.

’Cause that’s one thing that, you know, Alfred Starr, when he, you know, was in a mission school, and the teacher --

This is the way Alfred kind of described it, when the teacher, the sister, I don’t know if there was a -- I don’t think it was a Catholic school, but the teacher was talking about, you know, Alexander the Great and conquering lands and, you know, the Native American movement, the settlements with the Native Americans for the land and trading for this and that kind of stuff.

And so, it just -- Alfred said it just set a bug in his ear, and he asked the teacher, "Well then, we must own Alaska, then, right?"

And the teacher said, "Yes, you do own Alaska. The Native people own Alaska."

And so, as you know, as him being in junior high or wherever, how old he was at that time, he -- that was his first education of it. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: He started -- And he was very methodic. I mean, you know, by the time he -- when I was growing up and listening to him in the meetings, he was very rehearsed.

Rehearsed in a sense of, he had already in the -- during the Depression, he left Alaska and went to the Lower 48. And he went to about a half a dozen or a dozen Native American reservations. Um, just to investigate how a land settlement would be. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, what’s the best approach? And that’s how serious he was. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: I mean, he was the only lone wolf out there. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: In whole Alaska.

But that was the rationale for him to go Outside. Before he was married and had any kids, um, he went out and traveled.

Um, traveling, he would tell stories about traveling with the hobos, you know, the hobos. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: And he didn’t consider himself a hobo, but he said they fed him well. They treated him good. He -- KAREN BREWSTER: He rode the trains. BEAR KETZLER: He rode the trains, and he got around.

But he said he went to the reservations and he just said, oh my god. You know, they're -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: They were like prisons. You had to get permission to leave. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. BEAR KETZLER: Especially some of them in the Montanas, you know, they were just hellholes. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: The Fort Belknap and the Crow and the Blackfeet. I mean, they were just cesspools of nothing. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: You know. And all their lands were being leased out to somebody else to harvest timber, mining coal, whatever. You know, every reservation’s being exploited. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: One way or another.

So he came back very, very, um, determined, you know, that there will be a settlement in Alaska, but it’s not going to be in the reservation style.

Which gave credibility back to the original Judge Wickersham, when he had that meeting in Fairbanks. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: When he had -- when Hudson Stuck and Bishop Rowe, you know, had brought in all those -- KAREN BREWSTER: 1915?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, around 1915, brought in to Fairbanks here because of the railroad, uh, aspect was coming to fruition.

Money's being appropriated in Congress to build this railroad, and Hudson Stuck, who had came to Alaska from Texas, he had seen what the railroad had done to the Native Americans in California. Just decimated tribes. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And he did not want to see that at all. So he convinced Wickersham that we gotta call these people together, and we gotta get ’em on a reservation.

Because that’s the only way we can protect ’em. We gotta set a land aside, so.

When all the chiefs of the Tanana Chiefs’ area came together, um, by that time, which is, you know, from the time that Chief Thomas is at this meeting. You know, Chief Thomas had met Captain Morgan just 17 years earlier. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And 18, and um, August, early August of 1898, in Nenana. The sternwheeler stopped there, and um, the Captain Morgan got out and met him, and introduced themselves.

And they were able to communicate back and forth, as well as Captain Morgan had picked up a translator in Tanana, that he was on board.

So that helped, he -- this translator, you know, could speak all the different dialects. ’Cause they were very, you know, dialects were -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Speaking from different communities, communities were different.

But so, anyway, that was, you know, that was the idea of how the Native land claims would be structured that's primarily came from Charlie. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: My grandfather. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Said well, uh, let’s, why don’t we set up corporations? Let’s do corporations, and everybody be a shareholder. Everybody have an equal say.

Corporations are just like a tribe. Um, but, you know, the tribe would not be confound --

Um, because that was another aspect, of, you know, like my dad didn’t want to be the chief of Tanana Chiefs. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Um, the -- because the chiefs had so much power, and, you know, just, they didn’t want to let somebody have that kind of power anymore. Um, that they could trust.

And so, anyway, that was kind of the born of hey, you know, the corporate -- the corporations, you know, is a potential vehicle to look at. And so, eventually, that kind of concept -- And it was, you know, got to Congress.

And, you know, over the course of a number of years, it was refined out and they, you know, sat down and broke out different -- you know, broke up Alaska. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Amongst the different ethnic groups, indigenous groups. And, you know, passed historical legislation. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right. BEAR KETZLER: Yep.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, and, you know, as we’ve said, that the -- these names you’ve mentioned, you know, Bill Byler and Mary Alice Miller and Sandy Jensen, your grandfather, your mom. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: Were kind of the behind the scenes people that -- BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: -- um, I don’t think their names get recognized. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Um.

BEAR KETZLER: And they don’t. And that’s unfortunate, ’cause they're -- they're --

You know, there was an attempt after ANCSA to start up a Native Land Claims College. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: In fact, Tanana Chiefs kinda did. They had a whole structure for that.

And it was, you know, they -- they -- At that time, the leadership felt it was really important that the young people learn. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: The history.

’Cause it was an education for the Native community, too. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, that the whole land claims structure was not just born out of an idea, but it’s an idea that was generated hundreds of years ago, back in Europe. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: That a country can take over another country, but they cannot take over their culture. They can’t dissipate their language. They can’t integrate them.

You know, that -- and so, anyway, it was a very, you know -- It’s a really big picture, as far as the history of the legal basis of the settlement in Alaska. ’Cause all those aspects were used. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: And made logical.

Um, you know, to -- I mean, everybody was -- had their own different perspectives on it, right down to Richard Nixon, the president at the time.

He, you know -- when I -- when I heard the story, I didn’t really know why he would say that until I read his book, you know, many years later, his book came out.

But, you know, he told Don Wright, that "Don, I have nothing against Native Americans. As you know, my legislation, I given back more land to Native people." Which he did in New Mexico and other states. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And he says, "Um, I want Alaska Native people to have their land back. And you get me legislation on my desk, and I’m going to sign it without question."

And he told that to Don Wright, probably in 1970 or so. Um, two or three years earlier. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right.

BEAR KETZLER: But, you know, knowing now of his own personal history. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Through his book. You know, his football coach was a Native American fellow. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: And so, that heavily influenced him himself.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, well, you had mentioned the corporate structure. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: And I do want -- wanted to ask you about your assessment of the settlement act and the corporations and -- BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: How you think that has worked or hasn’t worked?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, as far as something that is so, you know, so out there, and um, you know, from the concept.

And the concept, ’cause always has been, you know, the American concept created under the Department of Interior. What do you -- you know, the Department of Interior was to decide -- was created, kind of, to decide, what are we going to do with the Indian problem? KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: You know. And so, the Indian problem -- The way the American government handled that situation, you know, led to a lot of, um, anguish to the Native American people, be it the Trail of Tears or the decimation of the American -- or the tribes in California, or even westward through Montana and Oregon and the coast.

You know, if you read Lewis’ account, I mean, you know, I mean, the American Indians helped him very much. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: They were very much alive when they -- they --

But, uh, so you know, coming up with this new concept of a corporation and shareholders and everybody having equal share and an equal vote, you know, overall has worked, I think, pretty good.

You know, now there is some flaws in it, and it’s -- was interesting because by -- I remember a time in a conversation with Senator Stevens in the middle '80’s, ’cause he was concerned --

Um, well, it was a concern at the beginning by people like Senator Stevens, um, after the, you know, land claims was passed, ’cause everybody under the sun was here in Alaska.

When Doyon would have a meeting, there'd be Saudis there, there were Jewish businessmen from New York. I mean, there was everybody there, ready to sell you something or have you buy something or whatever.

I mean, look at the -- one of the first investments Doyon made. You know what they made investments? KAREN BREWSTER: The asbestos mine. BEAR KETZLER: Well, yeah that was actually a little bit later. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

BEAR KETZLER: One of their first ones, they bought a hotel in Hawaii. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. Right. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: The Pioneer Inn. KAREN BREWSTER: I forgot that was the -- yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. I went to visit that. I was stationed in the Marine Corps in Hawaii, and I flew over to Maui, just to see my, what my investment was. And uh, so yeah.

But, you know, so anyway, you know, money was flying around all over Alaska. And, you know, a lot of corporations, including Doyon, you know, got so sucked up they -- under just lack of business knowledge, they -- you know, poor advice, some of them really got suckered. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: And uh, Doyon, was one of the biggest corporations that fell to their knees. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, it did? Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: Fell to their knees, yeah. CIRI feel to its knees.

But there was always these bright stars out there where -- Southeast, you know, Sealaska was doing good. CIRI was doing good. Arctic Slope was doing good. And NANA wasn’t doing too bad.

So when you look at the big picture, you know, of all the regional corporations, there was -- yeah, there were some pretty sad stories, and that’s one reason why Senator Stevens created NOL's.

KAREN BREWSTER: NOL's? What is that? BEAR KETZLER: That’s -- Let’s see, NOL stands for --

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, net operating loss. BEAR KETZLER: Net operating loss, yeah. Yep.

And that saved Doyon. That -- I mean, they already had so much loss on their books. They invested into a company out of Texas that they were, you know, going to go in competition against MAPCO. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, ’cause I had met some of the MAPCO -- they used to sponsor some of my basketball tournaments, and they always -- or I had dinner meetings with them. They would always ask the question, "Why didn’t Doyon partner with us? We asked them."

But the leadership at the time said, "No, no. We’re going to do our own thing. We’re going to develop our own oil refinery and all that kind of stuff."

And um, in which it fell on nothing -- nothing was -- they had all the land in North Pole right next to MAPCO. They had bought all kinds of equipment, but by then, the millions and millions were spent, and nobody --

You know when certain people, key people left, and there wasn’t the key people to begin with that knew what they were doing, you know. They knew how to, you know, act like what they were doing as far as the oil -- oil industry.

I mean, oil development it's either on the refinery level or development level, it’s a very complicated -- you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: I mean the -- yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and Doyon Drilling has -- BEAR KETZLER: But, that was merged later. That was under Morris Thompson, so. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

BEAR KETZLER: Reign. That he -- he -- the -- you know. Luckily, the oil companies came to him and said, "Hey, here’s a niche we think that you ought to be in."

And he hired the right people. Well, I think the oil companies might even gave him the right people. And developed, you know, a very successful -- a mainstay business. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, it is that. But that was years later, after Morris Thompson -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right, ok. BEAR KETZLER: -- came into the picture.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, are there things that you think should’ve or could’ve happened? BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: With -- in ANCSA and the land claims? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: That didn’t?

BEAR KETZLER: Well, you know, uh, each region has done different things over time. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: But the -- You know, and I came -- You know, when I got out of the Marine Corps in ’70 -- '78, and went right into college.

The summer of ’78, I was an intern at Tanana Chiefs, and I traveled, you know, to all the villages in the Interior.

So I got to meet, you know, all these people that -- all of them knew my dad. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And some of them would say, pretty much point blank, "God, your dad sold us a bill of goods."

You know, here I am an old man, you know -- I’m thinking of John Deacon maybe, in Grayling, he -- when I met him, he was 94, 95, or something like that.

And he, "So what has this Native land claims stuff done for me?" He had gotten a few checks, you know, when the land claims passed, Doyon passed out some money. The village corporations got some money.

But, you know, overall, you know, it was nothing. The Native people, the older, elders, didn’t feel they were leaving any legacy behind. You know, they didn’t have a nest egg.

They didn’t have any land. And to them, they thought a hundred shares, a piece of paper, was worthless. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Now that’s different today. Now, you know, through inheritance and things like this, I realize that a hundred shares in any regional corporation is -- is, um, is gold. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: You know, it’s money.

And um, so what -- what -- but every corporation’s been a little bit different. I mean, there’s corporations on the North Slope area that pass out dividends on a quarterly basis, and it’s enough to live on. For somebody to live a comfortable life.

You know, similar to the Pequots, you know, that have the casino. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. BEAR KETZLER: In Connecticut. On that old naval base.

They get 300, 400 thousand a year from the gambling proceeds. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. BEAR KETZLER: And they all have beautiful homes. They have their own neighborhoods, their own educational and health care. They’ve, you know, managed it and developed it right.

But -- but the other parts of Alaska, you know, they weren’t so fortunate, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: But I see, you know, as I -- You know, I always, wherever I’ve traveled, I have other friends living in other areas, I always say, "Could you send me your financial statements from your regional corporation?"

And I read ’em over, and, you know, and in a lot of cases, I see progression. Ones that like -- like CIRI. They had a hotel in Anchorage. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: They lost it. I mean, it was really down.

And oils came back in, got ’em back on their feet again. New leadership came in, and whammo. I mean, it’s very prosperous. They’re international now. I mean, they do a lot of neat things.

So there’s more success stories out there under this model. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: Than there is the sad stories. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, and Doyon is not a sad story, it’s just, there could be so much more that could be done. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: I mean, they have a tremendous land base that is not even scratched yet, really.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Well, and as one, yeah, what the negative consequences of going with that corporate way in terms of, you know, traditional values and cultural preservation? BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: And how leadership has dealt with that?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there was confusion in time -- for a long time that, uh, they -- there was a thought that the corporations had extinguished their aboriginal rights. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And which meant their hunting rights and their fishing rights and clean water and all that stuff.

But it, you know, as they’re learning now, it didn’t. It has this totally two separate things.

But somehow, for a while there, they was like -- like -- they were like comingled when they shouldn’t be comingled.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, but I thought in ANCSA that it did extinguish aboriginal hunting and fishing rights? BEAR KETZLER: Hm-um. No.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then that’s led to the whole -- then ANILCA, they tried to get it all back. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: With Title 8 and subsistence. BEAR KETZLER: Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then the whole state-federal battle over subsistence. BEAR KETZLER: Right. Yep. That was -- KAREN BREWSTER: But, so what’s the interp -- I --

BEAR KETZLER: Well, I mean, when it was clarified -- ’cause, you know, the State of Alaska -- Well, still the State of Alaska does not recognize Indian tribes. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: But when Ada Deer, you know, came into play, and, you know, one of her first missions when she got appointed and the Alaska delegations went down there, and the Tanana Chiefs was part of that party at that time, um, you know, said, "Hey, you -- you know, we have to be federally recognized." KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Our tribes up here.

And um, so -- and we had Senator Stevens on board. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: You know, to start funding.

In fact, Senator Stevens after that created the small tribes funding resource. So every tribe in Alaska gets 110 thousand dollars for operating cost. And it’s still in play today. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: It’s written right into -- but so, Ada Deer, you know, through putting Alaska Native tribes on the federal registered list. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And then having it, you know, authenticated that yes, you’re Alaskan tribes here, that -- and they didn’t --

And Alaska tribes didn’t have to go through the arduous process of becoming a declared Indian tribe ’cause there’s probably a dozen or more tribes in the Lower 48 that have been for the last 50 years trying to get themselves federally recognized. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: But, you know, Alaska was just like that. (snaps fingers) Just took the right person, the right time. KAREN BREWSTER: And so what diff -- BEAR KETZLER: The right president.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, what difference has that made, to have a tribal --? BEAR KETZLER: Oh, boy. It made all the difference in the world. Yeah.

It gave the villages, uh, stability to develop their own infrastructure. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. BEAR KETZLER: You know, to grow off of.

Because off of that, housing came into play. Village safe water. Uh, you know, there are all kinds of other programs, health care.

It gave the tribes -- they eventually, after they got that recognition, the tribes went, hey, you know, we can do more. We can take care of our own health care. So give us --

So a lot of tribes, Fort Yukon, Tanana, a number of ’em in Interior, they take care of their own health care. You know, they hire their own doctors, their own dentists.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. So that’s different than the federal contracting?

BEAR KETZLER: But that was -- Yeah, it’s just part of federal contracting, but it relates back to being federally recognized. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. BEAR KETZLER: Yep. Yep.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Yeah, ’cause those are things that the corporations can’t do? BEAR KETZLER: No, huh-uh. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. BEAR KETZLER: No. No.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. And then how does that work with the corporations and the tribes and how they, you know, get along, or who does what?

BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. Yeah, you know, that’s the strange thing, you know, ’cause I -- in some regions of Alaska, I see the tribes and the corporation, I mean, they’re hand and foot. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: I mean, they’re, you know.

Um, I think in the Interior -- I remember, I remember going to a meeting, and it was such a neat meeting, um, but I went to a tribal council meeting, which I was invited to as a Tanana Chiefs representative.

And so, one of the persons says, "Hey, Bear, could you wait a little bit? We’re going into our city council meeting." And I said, "Ok, I’ll stay and listen to a city council meeting."

Then I waited for other people to come in, and then they started a meeting. It was the same -- KAREN BREWSTER: Same people. BEAR KETZLER: It was the tribal -- yeah. And then they said, "Oh, we should have a village corporation meeting ’cause we have this one issue to be resolved."

And they went into the village corporation. They were all the same people. I think maybe one new person came in as far as the village. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: But everybody knew what was going on. Everybody, you know, was on the same page. And, you know, so there was, you know, true cooperation there.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it -- it does sound very complicated, all those layers. BEAR KETZLER: It is. KAREN BREWSTER: As you say, there’s the tribe. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: With their council. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then in some cases, there’s a city. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. And they always contradict each other. KAREN BREWSTER: And village corporation. And then the regional corporation. BEAR KETZLER: And a regional. Yep.

KAREN BREWSTER: So how do they -- BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. And that’s the sad thing is -- KAREN BREWSTER: How do you navigate all that?

BEAR KETZLER: It is. It is kind of complicated, but I think it’s just, like I said, in some areas of Alaska, um, you know, some other regional corporations, they haven’t been able to master that.

And I’ll just use Arctic Slope as being one of them and UIC (Ukpeagvik Inupiat Corporation), their village corporation. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: The village corporation told ARC (standing for Arctic Regional Corporation, but actually is ASRC, Arctic Slope Regional Corporation), "Hey, we want to be in this game. We want to build houses. We want to use our tribal health consortium monies and all that kind of stuff."

And so, they worked together, and ARC gives them money to help meet the grant requirements and stuff. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: So, there’s a wonderful partnership. And so, what the village corporation -- their village corporation then works over here, supporting the tribal college, and so it’s a really integral --

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And ASRC does other things.

BEAR KETZLER: And they do other international things. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Military contracts, they do.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then the North Slope Borough does other things. BEAR KETZLER: The North Slope Borough’s, you know, another thing that they all work really good. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: There -- there's lot of times, they’re the same people on different boards.

KAREN BREWSTER: But then also, there’s city council. Yeah, it’s just -- it seems like so many layers of bureaucracy. BEAR KETZLER: There is. Yeah, there is. And --

KAREN BREWSTER: And is that really necessary?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Um, is it necessary? If there was a spirit of the cooperation, it would all work just wonderfully. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: But, um, the, um -- You know, I helped, or I -- when I looked around, how we're going to save our rural schools, you know, for funding. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Especially in their conditions, like this pandemic or whatever. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: And the funding dropping, stuff like that.

And, you know, there’s no borough schools in rural Alaska. You know. KAREN BREWSTER: Except for the North Slope.?

BEAR KETZLER: Except for the North Slope and Valdez and Fairbanks. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm.

BEAR KETZLER: But there’s a 100-and-some-odd miles of pipeline that’s untaxed. The State of Alaska gets those proceeds. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

BEAR KETZLER: So I had worked, um, with a number of different communities to say, "Let’s incorporate a borough around this just to fund their education. Let’s just make this --" Similar to what Valdez does. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Valdez is probably the best example. They take the largest percentage. And so does, actually, the Arctic Slope Borough (actually is called the North Slope Borough). They take a large percentage of that and give it to the education. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And so, but anyway, it’s the -- the uh, the spirit of cooperation in the Interior is just not there. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And part of it is just what ANCSA had kinda created. And not really created, but it was already there, was the misaspect -- mistrust of other different tribes. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, they -- there was reasons why they had tribal wars. There was reasons why they had different hunting disputes and whatever.

And, you know, and so again, the spirit of cooperation, working together, clear the goals, whatever. It’s really hard to do when you get tribal groups and municipalities.

Doyon tries to keep out of that stuff. They always try to distance themselves. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: But it is, it is --

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and that’s one of the things that is mentioned with land claims movement is the unity. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: That it required for a statewide -- BEAR KETZLER: Oh, Alaska was amazing -- KAREN BREWSTER: To get that to pass -- BEAR KETZLER: -- how they came together.

KAREN BREWSTER: That the Native communities had to unify and come together. BEAR KETZLER: Yep.

KAREN BREWSTER: But then, I’ve heard that, um --

BEAR KETZLER: Oh, there was a lot of distinction on the level of Washington, D.C., when they’re, you know.

That’s why I think that, or I believe that Etok. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: And my dad, they saved the day, you know.

There was a bill introduced to give the Natives ten million acres of land, and I forget how many billions of dollars. I’d have to --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I can’t remember. BEAR KETZLER: -- ask more of somebody, a scholar-type person who was -- my dad would probably remember.

And so, anyway, looks like everybody was on board. You know, even the delegates, other delegates from Interior here.

But one thing, they had a rule about in Washington that everybody -- they practiced, you know, the seven civilized tribes’ mantra in the sense of one disagreement kills the whole thing.

So they agreed on that at the beginning that everybody have to be agreed before we go to Senator Jackson and Udall and them to say, "Ok, this is what we want.

KAREN BREWSTER: So AFN was sort of the group that was agreeing? Is that what you mean?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, well, I mean, yeah the -- Yeah, I guess, yeah, that would be kind of considered like the AFN. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: By then, AFN was kind of like the local point with all the different -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: You know, um, regional representatives that were there.

And um, so anyway, when the idea was presented that they were going to settle for much less than what they had proposed. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, Al, Sr., you know, I remember he called my mom, and my mom said, "No way. Do not -- " You know, "That is -- We’re not going to sell Alaska Natives down the road for that little."

And so, he went to Etok. Because he looked around, and, you know, everybody was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, ok. Yeah." They were all -- had money stars in their eyes, and, "Oh boy, let’s get this over, we can get out of Washington." KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: There was a lot of different personal political aspects of it.

And so, Al went to Etok and talked to Etok. ’Cause at that time Etok, I think, was kind of like neutral.

And Etok said, "Al, I’m going to back you this time. I’m -- we’re not going to -- the Arctic Slope Region is not going to settle for this." ’Cause he was the representative of Arctic Slope. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right. Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Which was amazing itself, but he had that responsibility.

And so anyway, he went back and oh god, they were mad at Al, Sr. and Etok. Hoo, boy! "You’re going to ruin it for -- we’re going to get less now!" That was the whole thing. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And so, that’s when it kind of glued like, what is our bottom line? And they said, "Ok." You know, "40 million acres is our bottom line." KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, about ten percent of Alaska. We’re giving up all this other lands, and then the cash settlement part.

Which I don’t -- I don't know if they actually had a number at that time, but during the negotiating process or not. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: But eventually, it was settled at about a billion bucks. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Um. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, yeah, and I’ve also heard that, um, something that Etok said kind of after passage. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: Was well, now because of how the -- it was set up for the corporations, that it was going to pit Native groups against Native groups.

BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. Yeah, he did talk a lot about that. And if anything, I don’t know if it was purposely, whatever, on Etok ’cause he’s kind of hard to read. I mean, I’ve known him since the '70’s. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And I knew him in his drinking days, and I knew him in his sober days, and he’s not only an eloquent speaker, he educates himself very well. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: He understands the world. He understands indigenous rights.

And he -- but he would bring up -- you know, sometimes he made things much more complicated than they should be. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: In other words. And, you know -- and it’s,

you know, one aspect, I think, that he lost a lot of credibility, you know, through is that people did, during his addiction years, seen him as kind of a cop-out, you know.

’Cause I -- I -- you know, his good buddy, Jonathan Solomon, who him and I used to be housing commissioners. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: We would travel together to the Lower 48. He always wanted to travel with me and stay in a hotel room with me and stuff like that.

And so, him and Etok were good, very good drinking buddies. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: They weren’t buddies after they quit, but they were.

And he was just amazed of how, you know, how Etok understood the system, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: And he took advantage of it on more than one occasion. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. And so, when many people would -- you'd hear that, he lost a lot of credibility. And I could see why even the Arctic Slope region kind of, you know, kind of pushed him away.

But if you understand addiction and stuff like that, I mean, it’s just a desperate guy wanting a fix. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: And he knew where to get his fix from. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Which he'd milk the oil companies. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, he would go into an oil company’s office and pound on their table and --

’Cause Jon would say, "What the hell are we doing in this, you know, Chevron, USA, office in Seattle?" You know, "I don’t belong here." Or whatever. Etok said, "Shh. Watch me. Watch me." And um, he --

Jonathan said one time, he was in there screaming, hollering, and they said, "Well, sit down, Mr. Etok, in the lobby." And then they’d come out. "Can we talk to you again?" And they -- He’d come back. In the lobby, Jonathan would stay there. They wouldn’t -- he wasn’t a part of the conversation with the oil executives.

And they came out with a check to his name for 40 thousand bucks and said, "Ok, here’s some money, Mr. Etok. Have a good day." And they opened the elevator for him as he left.

And so, then Jon said it took him two or three months to party that money away, and, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm.

BEAR KETZLER: But anyway, that word got around. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: And that undermined his personal credibility, which is un -- if people understand addiction, that’s -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: -- you know, he got his fix.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and as you say, he knew by threatening the oil companies -- BEAR KETZLER: No, he would threaten them that -- he would -- he would -- KAREN BREWSTER: -- with a lawsuit or something. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, oh yeah, he would tell ’em, you know -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: -- things that they would make ’em. You know, "I’ll get Arctic Slope to stop you from oil development." And I’ll --

KAREN BREWSTER: So they would pay him off.

BEAR KETZLER: They would pay him off. So, you know, I mean, really, to a certain degree, when I look at that and I think when I’ve heard -- first heard the story.

You know, I was thinking, you know, the oil companies are just as corrupt and dirty as he was, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, as you say, he knew how to work the system. BEAR KETZLER: He knew how to work it, you know. And so, the oil companies knew how to work him.

KAREN BREWSTER: You know, and I’ve heard the stories that during, you know, the land claims times, yeah, he would, you know, make big productions and get a lot of attention. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm, he did. KAREN BREWSTER: And stir the pot. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: You know, and it was intentional. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: You know, and it worked.

BEAR KETZLER: Oh, it did. Yeah. I -- I -- You know, I should have my dad tell you this story ’cause he tells it the best, but we were in a New York -- Or no, in a Washington, D -- upscale restaurant.

They all had kind of a successful day, the whole group of them who were going lobbying, so they got together with other bunch of guys and gals and, "Oh, let’s go out and have a nice dinner tonight."

So they went, "What’s -- what's a good -- " You know. So they picked a steakhouse, you know. Probably on, you know, Capitol Avenue or on L Street. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: Or one of the upper scale places. And they get in there, and Etok -- you know, they’re taking their orders. My dad, he likes medium rare steak.

And they get to Etok, and they say, "What do you would -- how would you like your steak cut, sir?" Or cooked? And he said, "Just bring it to me raw."

And the waiter had to pause and said, "I’m sorry, sir. I didn’t catch you. How'd you like your steak cooked?" "Just bring it to me, you know, uncooked. Raw right on the plate with all the trimmings and stuff."

So anyway, that -- the whole, when he -- the second time when the waiter asked Etok, like you pointed out, he would get the attention of everybody. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: So the whole restaurant kind of stopped, like, who’s this goofball ordering a raw steak, you know? KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, and, of course, they’re looking at him. And some people might know that he’s, you know, an Alaska Native, and a lot of Alaska Natives eat raw meat. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: But, so anyway, they did bring out the steak to him, and the whole kitchen staff had to come out of the kitchen while he was being delivered this raw steak.

And right in front of 'em, he cut it open, he cut it up and ate it. You know. And they were just looking at each other like, oh my god. You know, but after that he was a famous guy in that restaurant. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: They would welcome him back. Oh, you’re a great guy.

KAREN BREWSTER: He -- he did it for effect.

BEAR KETZLER: He -- he -- he had -- he took it to his advantage, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, and -- and -- and as I say, like in the political scene with land claims. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: If you got one guy out here being the super-radical. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: You know, sort of with the settlement -- BEAR KETZLER: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: -- idea, like well, we want, billions and billions and billions. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: It then makes the -- BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- you know, one billion seem reasonable now.

BEAR KETZLER: Right, well that's -- that was part of Etok’s mantra after the Native land claims, was. And he realized himself that hey, we gave up too much. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, I mean, that was -- you know, that was his major MO.

And he thought he could make it up in other ways, you know, trying to convince other people through tribal governments and things like this.

And yeah, I -- Yeah, I don’t see any really after-effect of what, you know, his promotion was or whatever, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Except for, you know, getting the federal recognition. I mean, you know, that was --

KAREN BREWSTER: That was part of it?

BEAR KETZLER: That was part of his MO in a sense, you know, that -- that the ANCSA is not -- did not destroy our federal trust -- trust relationship with the federal government.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. Well, and this idea of the regions being pitted against the regions, which was his sort of prognosis at the time of passage, do you feel that that’s happened?

BEAR KETZLER: No, not really. No. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: I mean, there is a sense -- there is kind of a sense of competition, you might say, within the region.

And that was one of the, you know, during Morris Thompson’s time, they formed this executive club. And that’s literally what it was at the beginning. Of regional corporations’ presidents.

They would all get together -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: -- in Anchorage at the Hilton. And they would in there -- And some of the stupid deals.

I remember Morris telling me some, I said, "Well god, why would you, you know, agree to that?" KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: But one of the deals that I remember the most was that no regional corporation would invest in somebody’s other corporations’ domain. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

BEAR KETZLER: Like, you know, ’cause at that time, Anchorage was going gangbusters and stuff.

You know, we’re telling Morrie, you know, "God, you -- you know, the oil companies are having buildings built down there. We need more skyscraper housing and hotels. And you know, what --?"

"Oh no, I can't -- we can’t take Doyon money and do that. We can do it anywhere else in our region or Outside, but, you know, that’s corporate etiquette." KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: I'm like, "Oh, my god, what kind of agreement is that?"

But, you know, as later on that I learned by a -- I had a study done once when I was the head of the planning department at Tanana Chiefs.

And I had Brian Rogers do a financial impact statement of the economics. How much of the Native community's economics inter -- integrate into the Fairbanks -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. Economy. BEAR KETZLER: -- economy.

And I didn’t know it at the time, when that report came out, CIRI and Arctic Slope owned more assets and more land than Doyon did in Fairbanks. (wife comes home and hear door closing and footsteps in the background) KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. That was a wakeup call for them. I remember taking that report to the Doyon and saying, "Hey, did you know that, you know, Arctic Slope --

KAREN BREWSTER: So that agreement, not everybody was -- BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, not everybody’s practicing it, you know. No. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

It was a gentleman’s handshake, probably. BEAR KETZLER: It would've been at that time, it was a gentleman -- Well, I don’t know. I don’t think it’s in place. KAREN BREWSTER: No, no, no. BEAR KETZLER: I hope not. Anymore.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I just have a couple more questions. BEAR KETZLER: Ok.

KAREN BREWSTER: I’m taking up a lot of your afternoon and family stuff starting to happen. I’ve got actually lots of questions. BEAR KETZLER: No, we’ll come back again.

KAREN BREWSTER: But one of them is, you know, growing up. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: In your early years around all that. BEAR KETZLER: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: Land claims activity with -- in your -- the household. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: And, you know, going to those meetings and hearing all that. Do you think -- how do you see that influenced you and what you went on to do?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, for um, you know, when the Native land claims passed, I was still in high school and stuff. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And so, you know, my dad, you know, when he was, you know, giving his two cents about what us kids should do, you know, and growing up and whatever.

And he really stressed, well, we’re going to need accountants. You know, we’re going to need business-minded, you know, leadership. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: This is a -- this ANCSA is going to be for the generation of the young people growing up right now that are going to go to college and get their degrees and all that kind of stuff. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: So um, so anyway, and my -- but I had already been -- my mind kind of made up on two things. One is that I -- we had a -- I had a cousin in ’69 killed in Vietnam. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm.

BEAR KETZLER: And that made me really curious about the military. And um, you know, I wanted to find answers, I guess you might say. Why was my cousin?

And I wish that I would’ve known at that time, you know, ’cause I was thinking, you know, some -- what they call in the Marine Corps, "gook." That was the term they given, for a Vietcong person. KAREN BREWSTER: For the Vietcong, yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, killed my cousin. You know, why. And uh, especially knowing that my cousin had a tough time being in Vietnam. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: And killing Vietnamese people.

He was actually -- his job was a corpsman, so he didn’t really go into combat. He was in combat, you know, but he was more trying to take care of people.

And um, so, but anyway, it just still had a major impact on him.

And so I had kind of made up my mind. And then I had, in high school I'd met Bruce Benowsky (sp?), who was the state trooper in Nenana.

And so I had another -- my best buddy, who we ended up going in the Marine Corps together, um, he, you know, kind of convinced us that you guys would be great state troopers, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And so, we said, "What -- what do we do to be a state trooper?" And he says, "Well." You know, he said, "Do like me. I went into the Air Force. And I -- right out of the Air Force, when I -- day I retired, I was solicited by the state troopers, went to the academy, and now I’m a state trooper." KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: So uh, I had this vision of going into the Marine Corps, um, from watching Jack Webb, I suppose. You know, the DI and other Marine Corps.

And then, um, so anyway, in high school, I joined the Marine Corps. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. BEAR KETZLER: I went into the reserves while I was in high school. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: And then my best friend in high school, which he had more scholarships than anybody could count to go to college. He was the valedictorian of the school.

He, um, informed me one day that he was going to go in the Marine Corps with me. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

BEAR KETZLER: And so I said, No you’re not." You know.

And sure enough, I loaned him my motorcycle, and he went to Anchorage, and he went and got his physical and stuff, and came back and told me he joined up. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. BEAR KETZLER: And that he was going to go in earlier than me. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

BEAR KETZLER: And so, he went in the Marine Corps and he -- that’s a whole ’nother story. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: But he committed suicide. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, I’m sorry. BEAR KETZLER: Soon after he got out. You know, it was too much of a -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: He didn’t go to Vietnam, either, but it was a major, major impact on his life.

KAREN BREWSTER: And you were stationed in Hawaii?

BEAR KETZLER: We were both stationed in Hawaii, yeah. He was the number -- when he went to school, he was the number one student in his class. And you get to pick anywhere you want to go in the world.

And when I graduated, um, I was number two, and there were luckily two slots. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, good. BEAR KETZLER: For Hawaii. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: So me and the two top students. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: Got to pick.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you didn’t have to go to Vietnam?

BEAR KETZLER: And I -- No, we didn’t. No, we were still in Vietnam, but the Marine Corps, we had what we called mop-up crews. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: We’re over there throwing helicopters off the, you know, off the airport transporters. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. BEAR KETZLER: We were destroying tanks. We were just -- mop-up was just destroying everything we were going to leave behind. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: And uh, you know, pulling out.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. And so, you spent four years in the Marine Corps? BEAR KETZLER: Uh. KAREN BREWSTER: Or two years?

BEAR KETZLER: It was ’75, '76, '77, and I got out in December of '77. So almost three years. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: I got out early, um, to go to college. There were -- you could put in requests.

And Marines were dropping out left and right out of the Marine Corps. I think they were losing like 20 thousand men a year or something.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you came back to Fairbanks?

BEAR KETZLER: I came back and went right into college. I got off the airplane, and two weeks later, I was on campus with goals of -- that was where the state trooper academy was. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. Oh, really. BEAR KETZLER: In Sitka. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Sheldon Jackson. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And then, um, I wanted to play basketball. ’Cause I had started playing basketball, you know, on a really competitive in the Marine Corps. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

BEAR KETZLER: And when I even tried out for the Marine Corps basketball team, and, you know, I don’t know what I ranked, but I was considered to be pretty good.

And that’s unfortunate that I -- my training in basketball through high school was, I was a forward, strong forward, or center. And I never did play guard.

But in the Marine Corps, when you’re playing with guys that were six foot, eight, six foot, ten, they were the centers. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

BEAR KETZLER: And they were expecting me to be a guard, and I didn’t have the training to be a good guard, so. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: But, um.

KAREN BREWSTER: But so did you go into the trooper academy? BEAR KETZLER: No, I went to college, and um.

KAREN BREWSTER: At UAF or at Sheldon Jackson? BEAR KETZLER: No, at Sheldon Jackson. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, I went there for a couple years. And then, when I came up, I met a girl in Sitka. We eventually married. Let’s see, I met her in October. We were married in February.

And uh, we -- she was still in high school, and so I needed to find employment, and then we were expecting a child, our first, my oldest boy, Donovan.

And so, I just kinda got into the workforce. But the Fairbanks School District were looking for teachers. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And so, a friend of mine, Dick Ferris, said "Hey, you know, you would be a wonderful teacher, you know. A junior high teacher."

And I thought, "God, you know, and I love basketball. I love, you know, I love kids." So I, you know, went and applied, and sure enough, I got a job teaching junior high. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And so, I wasn’t -- you know, probably by October, I realized that, you know, teaching is not, you know, my cup of tea.

And -- and -- and mainly ’cause I had such good teachers myself. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: In high school. I had wonderful, dedicated 100 percent, their whole life was around teaching.

And I had, you know, I had grander things that, you know -- as well as, you know, kids had changed a lot. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: I mean, you know, when my thinking of junior high, what I was thinking about when I was -- ’cause I was always relating, uh, "Of god, was I thinking like that when I was in junior high?" ’Cause these kids were -- we weren’t even talking that way in high school -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: -- a senior in high school.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it’s different, village versus urban. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So, but eventually, you -- you did get into -- BEAR KETZLER: I did. And I left school. KAREN BREWSTER: Corporation and TCC.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, teaching, after a year. I got a job at -- back in my -- where I did my summer internship. At Tanana Chiefs. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: In the natural resources department.

And um, I was hired to direct the agricultural program. And that’s how I got my foot back, you know, back into working at Tanana Chiefs. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And back traveling again. So I got back there in ’82. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: And so, I worked, you know, up until about ’98 or something like that, '99. Spent many years there. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: In differing capacities within TCC structure.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. And then, did you work for Doyon or --? BEAR KETZLER: I never have worked for Doyon, no. KAREN BREWSTER: No, it’s just -- BEAR KETZLER: I was --

KAREN BREWSTER: And then you were chief in Nenana for a while, right?

BEAR KETZLER: I was the tribal administrator in Nenana, yep. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. BEAR KETZLER: When Charlie Stevens was the chief.

And um, yeah, I had a great time there. I -- I, you know, truly knew the -- learned the term, you -- there’s -- you can’t do good things in your homeland. It was tough. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: But it was the funnest work that I ever had done as far as working. I always told some of my friends in Nenana that if I had a second chance, this is what I would do, you know. Which was pretty simple.

Is what I did when I got out of high school. Get out of town. You know, grow up. Learn some new things.

But um, you know, when I took over the tribe, there were 28 young men and women that were, um -- there was a program that provided financial support, kind of like welfare, I guess, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And so, anyway, I spent a lot of my energy getting ’em off that program and on their own sustained. Off to school, got a couple in the military. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, good.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, but um, yeah. Anyway, that’s -- that was an enjoyable time.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, so, yeah. I mean, certainly, your family background, some of it rubbed off on you. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, it did. KAREN BREWSTER: In terms of being involved in Native issues. BEAR KETZLER: Right. Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: The Native government, or however you want to say it. Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: I know one aspect that I thought I would do ’cause my dad had the same job that his dad had, which was head of the Ice Classic. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. And, you know, ’cause his dad was Richard Ketzler, Sr. He was always involved in kind of financial aspect.

Not only his craftsmanship was. He was a shipwright. You know, he built the steamer Nenana. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

BEAR KETZLER: He was the head of the head crew member on that. That’s how he got to Nenana, actually, was he learned that they were building boats in Nenana.

And he had that craft as a kid growing up in Germany. And uh, he gave up on looking for gold in Alaska and trekked his way from Flat, which is around McGrath area. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And made it to Nenana and right away, they realized he had a -- there’s a boatbuilding skill guy, and they hired him on the spot. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. BEAR KETZLER: He worked in Nenana for years. KAREN BREWSTER: Great.

BEAR KETZLER: But he also, you know, in the winter time, he was part of that creating, you know, the Nenana Ice Classic.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah. Well, I think the current administrator, I think she’s retiring. BEAR KETZLER: She’s leaving, yeah. But she was there for years. KAREN BREWSTER: I know, but so there you go. There’s an opening. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Well, no, they already hired somebody. But she -- KAREN BREWSTER: You could fulfill that.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, but when they hired her, I knew she was going to be there for 20, 30 years ’cause she’s -- KAREN BREWSTER: She’s done great. BEAR KETZLER: She was perfect for the job. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, she was.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, well, this is another sort of big question. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: We’ve kind of touched on it, but I thought I would ask it as one question. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Which is, how would you assess your dad’s contributions? BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. Yeah. Let’s see, overall? KAREN BREWSTER: Land claims and --

BEAR KETZLER: If it wasn’t for him, we wouldn’t have happened, you know. Something might’ve later on, you know, probably would’ve been, you know.

Senator Stevens didn’t really get into power until the -- you know -- ’cause everything worked. Timewise, everything is in timing. You know, it wasn’t just like Nixon. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Handing in his president.

You know, Senator Stevens, you know, getting his senate seat, and um, you know. During the Native land claims, he was just a junior guy. He was not a big play --

He had a lot of -- Strom Thurmond, I mean, he had a whole -- Tip O’Neill. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: He had a lot of big boys that spent hundreds of years of legislative experience. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: And he was just -- But you know, he paired up with his good buddy, his best buddy throughout his whole life, Senator Inouye. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And those guys working together moved mountains, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And really took Alaska to a whole ’nother level. You know, just as the senator in a way did the same for Hawaii. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: He did a lot of health care and all that kind of stuff.

But, uh, so I think if Al, you know, as time went on, eventually there would’ve been something, that would’ve, you know, who knows what it would’ve looked like. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, 'cause Charlie’s (Purvis) influence. Um, you know, he kind of dropped out, I’d say, by -- You know, he left the state, I’m trying to think what year it was. '60, hm, ’68, '69, he left the state.

KAREN BREWSTER: Your dad? BEAR KETZLER: No, my grandfather. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, your grandfather. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: And he had a little dinky Toyota pickup truck, and he left here. And for I don’t know how long, maybe a year or more, he traveled all over United States, going to Quaker meetings and promoting the indigenous causes of Alaska. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Sometimes these churches would give him a little bit of money. Most of the times, they didn’t. He just did it on his own.

And um, he um, you know, persuaded a lot of people to write letters to their congressmen. You know, which in the archives, there is a lot of little Quaker ladies writing to their senators, you know, from Kansas and Missouri and Montana, where all the Quakers are at.

And about -- talking about the settlement with the indigenous people of Alaska. So he was a part of that.

And then he landed in -- he bought a house in Troost Street, one of the biggest streets in Kansas City. I think I’m saying it right. Troost Street. Troost. Um, and um, so I’ve been to his house when he was living in Kansas.

And um, so he kinda dropped out. So that influence of him -- the Native land claims was really moving along -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: -- but he wasn’t involved in, say -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: -- the end of it. But --

KAREN BREWSTER: But your dad --? BEAR KETZLER: Well, my dad was. (background noise from wife starting to prepare dinner in the kitchen and footsteps)

KAREN BREWSTER: Do you know what, maybe, I mean, this is a question for your dad, but how he kept motivated to keep going?

BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. Um, well, you know, a lot of it was the different little hurdles, you know. Like, when the oil companies stepped in, you know, and said, we’re gonna back you guys, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Uh, and, you know, it was -- there was always something. There was many setbacks, but there was always something that would keep him involved and moving forward. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And as well as my mother wouldn’t let him stop. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: There was many times that he wanted to quit. He -- he got a job in construction one summer, building a bridge across Nenana. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, and he made the most money in years, you know, driving, you know -- driving as a teamster, that truck, hauling gravel for the bridge.

And that was really nice, where he just got up in the morning, went to work. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: And no -- You know, he had money in his pocket.

And so that was in ’67, '68, around then, when they were building that bridge. And so, there was times he wanted to drop out. It was getting -- he was getting burnt out, stressed out. (background noise of wife using the microwave and beeps from its buttons) KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: But -- and the other aspect, Alaska-wise, he was so ingrained and he was so looked at that, you know, they would hold up meetings until he got there. You know, and that’s -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, he became a very, an integral part of the whole thing. So. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. But that’s why I would hope that you get a chance to talk to him. KAREN BREWSTER: Yes. BEAR KETZLER: ’Cause I -- I mean, I kind of know some of his feelings. He’s upset in some ways, the way things have turned out. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: But I know in other things, he’s very proud of there. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And he, um, I know he got -- he lost -- You know, one of my brothers passed away. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: That really kinda set him back a little bit, you know, when he lost my brother to cancer. Lung cancer. Smoking.

And um, but and the other aspect of it, Alex, my brother said, you know, "I want all my nieces and nephews to get my shares." KAREN BREWSTER: Mm.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, so he got to divvy out some of the stuff that my dad created.

KAREN BREWSTER: Nice. That’s really nice. Well, I’m going to thank you for today. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: I know your household is getting ready for dinner and everything. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: And I don’t want to be in the way, so. BEAR KETZLER: Ok.

KAREN BREWSTER: I really appreciate it, and I can tell the great influence your dad has had on you. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: And that’s very special.

BEAR KETZLER: Right. It is, yeah. I know, um, I used to feel that I had competition, you know, ’cause he had a circle of friends that I know now that were -- they all came to him. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: He’s not a guy to get up and go visit you. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: Unless it was one of his brothers.

He loved his brother, Hank, especially, and his brother Richard. Gilbert, he was the, you know, the big guy of the family. He was very independent-minded. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: And an amazing character. But um. KAREN BREWSTER: So.

BEAR KETZLER: So like Mitch Demientieff. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: You know. I -- I -- we were talking one time, and he said something about my dad. And I said, "Oh, that’s my dad."

And he said, "No, your dad, huh-uh. That's my -- Your dad’s my dad." He says, "I look at your dad as my dad." KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

BEAR KETZLER: So Mitch has going to tell me, you know, like, you’re going to have to share him, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: And there’s other people that looked at him the same way. (doorbell ringing) KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: You know, a lot of people looked at him as a solid rock of support person. (noise of footsteps)

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, that’d be tough to share.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. I mean, I -- I -- it was -- But as I got older, I see how that and why that, you know, why he, because he’s very devoted friend. (conversation in the background) KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: I mean, he has friends that will, you know, fly from the Lower 48 just to come up and visit him for a few days. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: You know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and also, you know, for you, maybe, the shadow of him -- BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: -- could’ve been a challenge, as well, but --?

BEAR KETZLER: And it was, yeah. Yeah. And I used some of it to my advantage. I got lots of stories of where I impersonated him. You know, especially, you know, on the governmental level. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: You know, there was a young lady that was -- had a scholarship to go to the Indian Santa Fe school for -- KAREN BREWSTER: Art?

BEAR KETZLER: Art school, yeah. And she was a real art -- I met her in the village. And she, you know, she was really devoted, I mean, this is where I gotta go to make my career.

And she was a bureaucrat, so I called up and said, "Al Ketzler’s here." You know, I heard the secretary. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: You know, "Oh, Mr. Ketzler." You know. And he hadn’t met -- you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Thank god, ’cause he sounded like he knew me. And he was saying, you know, "God, we’re so proud of you, what you’ve done for Alaska." You know. And whatever. And he said, "Well, how can I help you, Mr. Ketzler?"

I said, "Well, there’s this young lady from Holy Cross that wants to go to this school." "What’s her name?" I give him her name. "It’s done. It’s taken care of." KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

BEAR KETZLER: I said, "Thank you very much, sir," and hung up. She called me back a couple days later and said, "I’ve got a ticket to Indian, you know, Indian art school." KAREN BREWSTER: Great.

BEAR KETZLER: So I have lots of stories like that.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, that’s wonderful. Smart. You see, you learned from Etok how to work the system. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, well that’s -- KAREN BREWSTER: (laughing) Ok.