KAREN BREWSTER: Today is December 7, 2021, and this is Karen Brewster. And here in Fairbanks, Alaska, with DeLois Burggraf. And her son, Al Ketzler, Jr., Bear Ketzler. Is joining us today. And this is for the ANCSA Project Jukebox. So thank you both for coming this morning.

Um, so just to get started, DeLois, can you give me a little bit of your background. And I know you were living in Nenana. How did you end up in Nenana?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. Well, um, basically.

KAREN BREWSTER: Like, where were you born?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I was born in Kansas City, Missouri, and I was a city girl for the first seven years of my life, learning that world. You learn to cross the street. Look -- you know, stop on the corner. And you read the red light and the green light. And you learn, you don’t go into neighbors’ yards. You learn that world.

And then, um, during that time, the US government drafted my father, who was a man with, uh, three children, into the World War II.

And his draft was a very different form in the sense that -- according to law, a family man with children wasn’t drafted. And he got drafted.

And so, he wrote his senator, Truman, at the time, and asked him, "Well, why am I getting drafted when under the law that I’m exempted because I have, you know, children."

And Truman wrote back and informed him that there is a thing called the joker in the law, which there really is. I have a block -- a black legal law book in which I could show you the law. And it’s a joker in the law means they make laws, but don’t intend to enforce, so -- KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s another little clever congressional gimmick. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And most people don’t know that. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, Charlie learned that early.

KAREN BREWSTER: So your father was Charlie Purvis? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Charlie Purvis.

And my mother is Dorothea Purvis. Both come from agricultural backgrounds. Both born in Missouri. But both from different agricultural backgrounds.

One, I have no idea in my mother’s side, ’cause Mom kept very quiet about her -- her childhood. Very reser -- and quite often if I did ask a question, she’d give me some weird little answer that really turned out to not have substance to it. So there’s a lot about her I don’t know.

And with Charlie was very open about his childhood and very, oh god, informative as a child what his life was like, which was very subsistence farming. No money. I mean, their culture lived without money.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they didn’t need it. But they lived by hard work.

BEAR KETZLER: He was the youngest of seventeen. DELOIS BURGGRAF: What’s that, hon? BEAR KETZLER: He was the youngest of seventeen.

KAREN BREWSTER: Youngest of seventeen children. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, he was the youngest male of seventeen. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He was the fourteenth of sixteen children. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DELOIS BURGGRAF: All birthed at home.

And he was -- here his mom had at least four kids in her 40’s. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He was at least the second child in her 40’s, and then he -- she had two more girls after. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So anyhow, this was very rural. What they called in those days, Monegaw Springs. It was southern Missouri, and the irony of them now is probably about 60 miles north of Branson.

And Branson begins the region where it’s hillbilly country. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It is like this. KAREN BREWSTER: Hilly. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yes.

And, you know, that’s the hillbilly country. And I guess the Appalachias were hillbilly country. You learned to farm on a hillside. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. So --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Dad’s was a little bit north. They had a little more flat land. It was on the Osage River.

And he lived -- oh god almighty, I mean, his stories, hon. I could sit here all day and tell you. KAREN BREWSTER: I’m sure.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The social system. It was a very -- you know, I would say probably about like living in Minto. It was not a community of a -- of town, because they were farmers. They had land. But yet they were very social.

And um, they had the tradition and somebody’s ill, you know, you made sure their cattle got milked and fed, and their livestock. And then if somebody is bedfast, they had to sit with them. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Dad and another teenage young man, at one point when they were teenagers -- and I know I wouldn’t want this, but if I was bedfast, I wouldn’t want a couple of teenagers sitting with me, but they were told to sit with this woman.

And she was in a horrible state, just bloated, and they were talking as teenagers do, that, you know, she’s not going to make it. You know, da da da. And, of course, time goes by and she got well. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, good for her.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And got back on her fe -- I mean, you know, they -- Anyway, hon, I mean, there was no doctors. I mean, it -- life did not depend on a doctor or a dollar. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And you lived off the land. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Period.

KAREN BREWSTER: Sort of like Alaska communities.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Like Alaska. I mean, I fit like a hand in a glove. Really. KAREN BREWSTER: So did your father come -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because it wasn’t that foreign.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did your father come up to Alaska through the military?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so to back up, ok, he grew up, and when his dad died, and, of course, he went to Kansas City, and that’s where he met my mom, who at that time was a maid.

And she was -- according to her story, she was a maid placed in a home to allow her to go to high school.

Now Charlie only had five years of schooling. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Which was normal in that era and at that time for farm boys. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: To get only five years of schooling, because they were -- by the time they’re twelve and thirteen, they’re working like men. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: With their dad on the farm.

And the dad said, "I’ll learn ’em. You don’t need no book to teach ’em. I’ll -- he’ll learn how to work, and he’ll learn what to do." You know.

And so you do. You work with these adults, and you are learning. Oh my god, you learn versatile things when you’re working on the land.

KAREN BREWSTER: It’s just like being a subsistence hunter. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, it is. KAREN BREWSTER: And trapper. You learn from your elders.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And like I say, those boys that I -- old men that I grew up with, when I come to Nenana, could walk in the woods with just a couple of tools and stay there and come back with snowshoes, a canoe, a -- you know, like I say, they could -- and then, or skins.

And then the women. I mean, when you see the pictures of those people in that era and those kids are wearing these fur, those women did that. It did not come from Sears and Roebuck. KAREN BREWSTER: No.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, I do not -- I mean, this irritates me that people don’t understand how hard those people worked. There was no leisure time. KAREN BREWSTER: No. DELOIS BURGGRAF: There was no leisure time. KAREN BREWSTER: No.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And it was hard physical work. But it was just like my dad’s people. It was hard, physical work. Sunup to sundown. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, yes, it was different lifestyle, of course, because up here you can’t grow peaches and apples, and, oh my god, did I miss that when I came.

And, of course, you had -- I didn’t have a cow in the backyard when I came.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So what year did you come to Alaska? DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I come in 1951. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In December, we crossed the border.

And uh, Charlie had been here two summers before. KAREN BREWSTER: In the military?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: No. Ok. I was going to tell you how he got here because he got drafted. And the US government then contacted him and told him to report to induction in Leavenworth, Kansas. Ok. He’s in Kansas City, and he reported to induction.

And he knew he was a healthy farmboy, ex-farmboy, and he knew he was going to pass the physical, no problem.

And he assumed he would be given two weeks to get his personal affairs in order. He was not. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He reported to induction, was thrown in a back room, shaved head to toe, thrown in a boxcar with a bunch of other men, and sent to Texas for three weeks of basic training instead of six. And not allowed to contact his family. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He had no idea this was going to happen to him. And the only reason I know this story is that when I’m around 35, I finally remembered when he was in the room with me, to chasten him for the way he handled going off to war.

Because the way it was presented to me was I -- my mother pulls the blankets off. I’m this little six-year-old kid, just started first grade. And um, she’s crying, "They took your daddy off to war. Get up and go to school. You gotta take your daddy -- "

Anyway, I was aghast ’cause I thought they came in the night and pulled him out. And, of course, as a child, of course I wanted to warn him to watch out for the swords. Because Japan was always, you know, in the cartoons -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- they of course made the -- KAREN BREWSTER: The Samurai. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Mocked the Japanese, you know, bucktoothed and little eyeglasses, and anyway, with a sword.

And so anyhow, I could not warn him. And for a child, that was so horrible.

And, of course, you’re sent to school and you’re numb for about two or three days, and then the teacher shakes you out of it, you know. "Shape up. Ok. Enough. Ok."

And so, you get on with your life. And I never knew until I finally remembered at 35, "Why did you handle it like this?"

And he said, "Well, how did she handle it?" And I told him. And then he told me, he was not allowed.

And he assumed she would think he had taken off to Canada and booked and abandoned. That’s what he assumed she would assume. And he didn’t know what she did, either. KAREN BREWSTER: So --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But anyway, after he got out of his two years of service with the US government, he never trusted the US government again. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he had what today they'd call, you know, the -- KAREN BREWSTER: PTSD? (post-traumatic stress disorder) DELOIS BURGGRAF: I wouldn’t call it D, but PTS. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know? And the same symptoms, he would -- you know, he didn’t like being around groups of people. Um, and uh, anyway, he just -- he had to get out to the country. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And we got out to the country and was able then -- I went to a different world from the city girl to the farm world. And that was a whole new learning and a world for me.

And uh, anyhow, I don’t know how to put it. There was a couple of years where he just walked the land. Walk, walk, walk. I mean, just walk all around.

It was kind of a remote corner. We didn’t have electricity or plumbing. And uh, or, you know, telephone. You know, not even the -- KAREN BREWSTER: Crank phone? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Crank, yeah. We didn’t even have one of them.

And that’s what everybody else that had a phone that was in the main line. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They had.

But, uh, anyhow, he had to walk things out and finally kinda -- but he did clever things as far as not having any money.

As far as he was able to acquire, on payment I’m sure, a chunk of land that nobody else wanted, and created a very clever subsistence.

He caught a couple of goats, and I tell you, goats are the most clever. If you’re ever hungry, you go -- and you got enough forest or whatever, you go get a couple goats and you will live.

And then a couple of chickens. And then, of course, he got some cattle. And, of course, this was 80 acres of -- half of it was, you know, what you’d call pasture, whatever.

And then, not really pasture, but it could be worked as a field or grazing.

And the other half was -- well, a creek and timber, oaks. All kinds of oak. Walnut trees. Pawpaw trees. Hickory nut, even.

And anyway, it was -- it had about four springs on it. KAREN BREWSTER: Mm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In an area where most people had cisterns.

And there was a time when -- couple of times we had droughts, and my dad was able to let people who had concerns for their animals come. Because we had water. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: We had the creek. And then we had springs on that land. And it was perfect land.

So I grew up and trained by him in -- in -- I loved hunting. Not hunting. I loved the woods. I didn’t love hunting. He taught me to hunt, and I did have to --

there’s a -- you know, more than one time when I had to come home from school and go take the .22 out and go -- My goal was to get two rabbits or two squirrels. But sometimes you got one rabbit and one squirrel. And then you were in a dilemma.

But anyway, you know, after you walked -- like you walk three miles to the country school, one-room country school, and walk three miles home. And then you get your little .22, and you go out and you get dinner.

And you peel the rabbit. And you put it on the stove to simmer. And then you go milk the cows, and, you know, this is what you did. You know. And you did the chores and fed the horses and the pigs and all of that. And that was my world until we come to Alaska.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And coming to Nenana, it fit in.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And coming to Alaska was a 180-degree change.

KAREN BREWSTER: How old were you when you came to Nenana? DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I -- I just had just turned 13. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Just turned 13.

And so anyway, I’m planted in a completely different world, and um --

KAREN BREWSTER: What was Nenana like back then? DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Nenana -- and, of course, Alaska was so different.

And uh, it was still on the edge of World War II. The economy in Alaska was still largely subsidized by World War II.

You know, the bases. Ladd was still there (Ladd Field in Fairbanks). Fort Rich was still in Anchorage (Fort Richardson). Um, there were all over Alaska in a lot of villages what they call CAA in those days. Civil Aeronautics. KAREN BREWSTER: Administration.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Which became FAA. (Federal Aviation Administration) KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so, flying was definitely a norm, which was still novel in Kansas, except unless you were a duster, you know, crop duster, or a performer at fairs, you know.

But to get on and jump on a plane was not anything normal. But up here, it was normal.

A plane land in a village, and people jump on. And, of course, the ones jumping on, normally, would be indigenous people, and they traversed in planes like we -- you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: So was the road from Fairbanks to Nenana there yet? No. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Huh-uh. There was no --

And when you came, you came -- we came in on train from Anchorage. And when you got to Nenana -- and I remember this, the awareness of it, was like you’re in this little island.

You’re like, instead of an ocean of water, the ocean was forest all around, and here’s this little island, and this was this little town. Which to me was bigtime because it was 350 people.

And it was -- I only had to go about three blocks to school. And then school was out, and I could run down to Coghill’s store, or NC store, or Fowler’s store.

And there was even little, um, Gilbert, Mae Gilbert, which was Francis Coghill’s mother, Jack Coghill’s mother-in-law, had a little a -- kind of like a dime store. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Where you could -- if you had any loose change, you could buy a trinket or something, you know.

And so, I mean, this was, whoa. Big city. Whoa. I mean, really. I mean, foreign, too, around that many people.

Um, yes, I had school friends. When you walked to that three miles to school. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, you know. But that was it.

My closest neighbor was, if I went by the road, about a mile and a half. Not less than a mile.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did you have siblings? DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I had two younger sisters. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They were five and six years younger than me.

KAREN BREWSTER: And they came with you to Nenana? The whole family came? DELOIS BURGGRAF: And yeah, the family came up.

And what had happened is Charlie had come up. Like I say, he’s -- he didn’t -- he never trusted the US government again. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, then he was -- he’s always very astute at observing what’s coming down the pipe. And he observed this tension in Korea, and, of course, the MacArthur, all of that.

And he knew he was in the reserves, and he knew he’d be one of the first called in. And he knew he had to go somewhere so that didn’t happen. He joined the Merchant Marines. He was able to get in the Merchant Marines.

And basically, Charlie, he never formally claimed to be a CO, conscientious objector. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But I know personally, he did not -- he did not believe in it.

But yet, I know when he got into the World War II, which he was never involved in any -- oh, what would you call it, conflict.

He was -- when they got in, you know, the basic training, three weeks, they were put on a troop ship. And it was very grim. All of these men on these huge ships. Thousands of men.

And they’re all grim and serious ’cause they knew they were being sent to the front. And they knew this was not a pleasure cruise.

And Charlie said that about midway, there was kind of -- I mean, Charlie, this is one of the things he mentioned, and it reminds me of early day Nenana. Or Alaska. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: We called it mukluk telegraph. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But on the ship was the same phenomena. Something could happen.

And these ships are really huge, long. I don’t know how many feet. I don’t even know how to begin to narrate how long a troop ship is.

But one information could go quicker than a fire to the other. And like you said, it was all grim, and then all of a sudden, it was a rumor of a bomb. A rumor of a bomb.

And he said, then instantaneously, the whole demeanor of the ship become a cruise ship. They lounged on the decks, and the whole demeanor, you know, of grim men. It was kind of leisure men and joking and laughing men. Totally changed.

And they landed. They were the occupation troops. The first ones landed in Tokyo.

And then they heard about the H-bomb. And the H-bomb was for Charlie a very demoralizing event because he’d been raised to protect women and children.

In his culture was a -- there’s different southern cultures, and I don’t know how much you know about southern cultures. There, of course, strong Bible belt, and I’m not talking Roman Catholic, which were suspicious of Roman Catholics.

They were agents of the Pope. And they were serious. And uh, they kept kind of rigid notions about how women should behave. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Proper. They should be proper.

Definitely shouldn’t wear lipstick. That made ’em a little suspicious. The kind Dolly Parton wanted to grow up to be like. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. And um, like I say, the -- oh god.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I’m going to get you back to Nenana. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, back to -- well.

KAREN BREWSTER: That, so how did you get involved with the early land claims?

BEAR KETZLER: Wait, she’s gotta go back to talk about -- KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. BEAR KETZLER: You know, Charlie had come up to Alaska, to Nenana. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Two summers before to work. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: He was in the trades, carpentry work. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: And so --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, no, no, no. He wasn’t a carpenter yet, hon. He worked in two mines. He came up and worked in a mine, one called Jack Wade, I think. And then the other one around that Earl Pilgrim. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Remember Earl Pilgrim? KAREN BREWSTER: I know the name.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he worked at his mine. That was the second summer, I think. And that was around Stampede. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, anyhow, that’s what -- economics is what got him up here. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Back -- anyway --

KAREN BREWSTER: And then he brought the family?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He did the, um, Merchant Marine thing, and then from the Merchant Marines is how he got to Alaska.

He’s on this ship, I don’t know, crossing -- you know, by then, you get to know the men a lot. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, anyhow, he had his adventure with the US government. Tokyo, which was real interesting, and then he ended up in the Philippines.

And he had there a picture and saw how the US treated the Filipinos. He didn’t like what he saw. He was very shocked.

The Japanese were held in high regard by MacArthur, but the Filipinos who had died and fought to protect the US because Japan had come and entered the Philippines and chased MacArthur out. He turned tail and ran and left the Filipinos on the front lines, and they went through brutality. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That you can’t imagine.

And when Charlie came there, these young children, little boys, had jobs of fifty cents a day or something, to gather up bodies and stack ’em up like cord wood that were still laying around.

And women were out scratching to get something to eat for their families. And the US government discounted that. Just demeaned them. And that irritated Charlie.

And I remember his attitude when he -- like I say, there was a lot of spiritual consciousness that I was aware of that Charlie -- that disturbed Charlie. Exactly what totally alienated him from the US government, I don’t know, but I know he never trusted it again.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it sounds like a series of events. All that you’ve described. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Somehow. KAREN BREWSTER: Leading to it. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Somehow. Yeah, and any -- well, so uh.

KAREN BREWSTER: Coming to Alaska was a way to get away from that.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the -- Well, was it Mexico? If you’re alienated from your country, you go to Mexico or Alaska. And he didn’t know Spanish.

And anyway, on that troop ship, when he was in the Merchant Marines. Not the troop ship, the Merchant Marine ship. The men get to know each other and start talking. "Well, I always wanted to go to Alaska." "Yeah, me too." "Well, we oughta go someday." And da, da, da.

So these four men arranged to buy a car together, and they drove up, Charlie included. And they drive up from, I think, New York.

And they have their Alaskan adventure, and they only ended up with three of them arrived because they bought out the interest of one man who had a habit of not paying for any groceries when he was in Canada. And they didn’t want to be involved with a crook, you know. So they had to buy his interest out and let him go on his own.

And so, then the three of them came up. And Charlie, like I say, ended up, I think, on the Jack Wade Creek is how he referred it as a mining camp.

And then went back and proposed to Dorothea, my mom, that we move to Alaska. And she told him where he could take that idea. But the next spring, he’s heading north, and she’s stuck on the farm alone again, which she hated. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, god, that was horrible for her, so --

KAREN BREWSTER: So you guys came up. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He come up again.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so why Nenana? Did you --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He came up again by himself, but when he came back that fall, she was packed and had sold out everything.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So why did -- why did he pick Nenana?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he came up. And he was in Nenana toward the last -- well, Stampede, as you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. That would’ve been close by.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, of course, it was just the railroad. There was no road in those days. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But somehow, he ended up in Nenana for a while, and I don’t know exactly what he did in Nenana, but he did live there long enough to get involved a little bit with the community and know some of them.

And so, anyhow, he had made arrangements before Dorothea got here for -- oh god, for -- like for instance, when she come to Nenana, she’d -- he’d made arrangements with the Coghill Store that she could charge food.

And, of course, let them know that she would be looking for a place to rent. And he’d arranged for a couple, a little elderly couple, to board Mom and us three girls.

Now Mom was very pregnant when she got here. And so, we got here in December, and then my brother was born in February. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, she was very pregnant.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So she was quite far along. So anyhow, there was three, but nearly four kids.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So who did you board with? Do you remember that -- ?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: We boarded with a man who ran, and might’ve even got elected maybe once or twice to the legislature, but back in those days, it wasn’t a state. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But they had a pretend legislature, and it was -- oh my god, his name is Jones. Oh god. Heh. Tom Jones. Tom Jones. Tom and Olive Jones of Nenana.

And that’s where we boarded. And then Mama found a nice cabin with an indoor pump. We didn’t have to haul water. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, fancy.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Before, I had to run down past the barn, down the hill, and get couple of buckets of water. And this one had a pump right in the kitchen. Woo!

KAREN BREWSTER: So was Nenana mixed Native, non-Native? What percentage, about?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It was -- when Dad would get asked that question, a lot of times, you know, he’s talking to somebody and he always answered, "Well, it was half Native and half white and half half-and-half." That’s how he would answer.

KAREN BREWSTER: That's a good answer.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause there was the real indigenous. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then there was the real mixed, and then there were the newcomers like him that had mixed with nothing yet. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then there was some of them that were indigenous, but they were white. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And like the Coghills. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And there weren’t a lot of the indigenous whites, but, you know.

And there were quite a few Canadians. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause in those days, I don’t even know if the US and Canada knew that we weren’t the Yukon.

’Cause really, hon, we used to trade with Hudson Bay.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I mean, it’s not like there were Border Patrol guys standing there.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: There was not. And in fact, in charge of the railroad at Nenana, the station master, who was a trustworthy person, I’m sure, was a Canadian. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Or British. I’m not sure if he was British or Canadian.

But when the Queen died, their children got dismissed from school to mourn.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. At that time, Canada was part of the British empire. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yes. Yes. KAREN BREWSTER: They cared about those things.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yes, that’s true. They were still part of the British empire. KAREN BREWSTER: They cared about the queen. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They did. KAREN BREWSTER: Yes. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they were still part of the British empire. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And like I say, we could -- we bought most of our winter gear from Hudson Bay, which was better than Sears and Roebuck. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: God bless. You cannot know how much better. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And the --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But the US government wouldn’t let us do that after World War II. They forced us to buy from Montgomery Ward and Sears and Roebuck.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so, growing up there -- well, you were 13. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: But still, you mixed -- the Natives and the --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, our neighborhood, which, hon, like I say, Nenana was, what would you call it? There was three blocks, four blocks up this way, and maybe four blocks about that way. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then down on the other side behind, was the big barracks. During World War II, they had 300 -- I’ve heard there were 350 GIs stationed in Nenana.

KAREN BREWSTER: I didn’t know that. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And to protect the bridge. They were not there when we came, but the barracks and the mechanisms of running the big barracks, you know, whatever furnaces and power systems and whatever, were still there.

And in fact, I think that mechanism was -- a lot of your grandma had her children born by those doctors that were in Nenana. I think, involved with the military.

Now your dad was born in ’33, and he’s the youngest. It was some kind of federal doctors that your grandma -- your dad was born by a doctor. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Which, I mean, is like unheard of.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it was a railroad town.

BEAR KETZLER: Or either that or the Episcopal church -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, the railroad would've had some -- BEAR KETZLER: -- would’ve had a presence there, too, with the -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: What, hon? BEAR KETZLER: Medical service. The Episcopal church.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, no, no. This was not the Episcopal church, I don’t think. I know the medical service at the Episcopal church.

Now the nurse at the Episcopal church is the one that delivered my brother at home. Mom did not go to Fairbanks to have. It was by the nurse.

But I think your mom, or your grandma -- and it might’ve been, you know, your -- Dan was born in ’23. Your uncle. And your dad was born in ’33. In that ten-year time, maybe the federal government had some kind of doctor. You know, they were building the railroad.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, the railroad might --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the bridge was around 1920. You know -- BEAR KETZLER: ’23. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- maybe it was that.

KAREN BREWSTER: ’Cause I was saying, Nenana, you know, was a big railroad town. BEAR KETZLER: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: And the government --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, the main purpose of Nenana was the docks. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s where the freight come in on the train. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then the freight went down the river.

KAREN BREWSTER: And the railroad at the time was owned by the federal government. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: So it would make sense that they would’ve had a presence there. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: And, as you say, the mission would’ve maybe had a doctor.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, they -- I don’t think they -- they might’ve had doctors sporadically. BEAR KETZLER: Probably had a doctor, but they had (gets talked over) --

KAREN BREWSTER: They had nurses. Well, that's what I -- They might've had a visiting doctor. They had nurses.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, they did have sometimes a visiting doctor that would come up. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And this is the truth. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh god. KAREN BREWSTER: And it shows how things --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Those kids that were a certain age would have to walk down and get their tonsils without anesthetic. KAREN BREWSTER: Ugh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Now I never let them touch my kids. You never -- he’s still got his tonsils. KAREN BREWSTER: I still have my tonsils, too, so --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I mean, I can -- you know. Oh my god. I can say, hon. Oh my god. Oh, things that you're just -- oh my god.

KAREN BREWSTER: So in the 1950’s -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Was there starting to be talk in Nenana about land claims? DELOIS BURGGRAF: No. No, no, no. No, no.

But there was an advocate that we didn’t know yet, and he’s Tanana. He is Al Starr. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. Senior.

BEAR KETZLER: That’s why the cultural center is named in Nenana Alfred Starr, Senior.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, I know his name.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Al Starr, now hon, do you have a clue how old Al was? BEAR KETZLER: When he died? DELOIS BURGGRAF: When he died. And what year did he die? BEAR KETZLER: Mm, he died like in, let’s see, after Charlie, so it was in the -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, it was a couple of years. BEAR KETZLER: Early 90’s, I guess. DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’93 or so. BEAR KETZLER: Somewhere around there. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And --

KAREN BREWSTER: But he was originally from Tanana. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He is Tanana. KAREN BREWSTER: But he lived in Nenana?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He’s an aristocratic family. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: He lived in Nenana (gets talked over) -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And in Tanana, his family, before Fort Gibson (Fort Gibbon). KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They were the aristocrats. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They were the munitions. They were known in that region for their arrows. They were like the munition manufacturers. And you went there -- depending on what you were acquiring.

And um, like I say, it was a prominent family. And then, of course, it became Fort Gibbons (Fort Gibbon), which was occupation troops. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. But so he -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, uh -- KAREN BREWSTER: He had some inkling -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: But -- KAREN BREWSTER: He was sort of the first.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But what happened -- let me tell the story. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. BEAR KETZLER: You could write a book on him. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No. Well, anyway, he -- KAREN BREWSTER: All of this.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Was a student in the Tanana school. And my -- my take of it -- this is where I’m coming from. That teacher must’ve seen a quality in him. BEAR KETZLER: This is the mission teacher. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, no, no. BEAR KETZLER: It was a mission. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t think it was mission. Well, it could’ve been.

KAREN BREWSTER: In Tanana? BEAR KETZLER: It was. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, it had to be. BEAR KETZLER: It had to be. That’s the only school there. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, they didn’t have -- well no, Minto had a BIA school (Bureau of Indian Affairs). KAREN BREWSTER: Later. But probably not as early as Al --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, like I say, I don’t know if it was BIA or mission.

KAREN BREWSTER: I’m thinking with Al -- the timing of Al Starr being a kid in Tanana. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: It would’ve been a mission. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: School. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t know. BEAR KETZLER: ’Cause Al -- his age-wise -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t know because -- BEAR KETZLER: He was -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: They might’ve had -- BEAR KETZLER: Made it to the university.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They might’ve had a school for the GI's that were there. They might’ve had families. BEAR KETZLER: That was mostly single -- single GI’s.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Most of them were in those days, but again, it was at Fort Gibbons. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he -- the -- I don’t know how old -- let’s see. We’re said -- he is 90-something in '91.

BEAR KETZLER: He was born in the late 1800’s. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He was born in very late 1800’s. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Was Fort Gibbons (Gibbon) wasn’t there yet? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Or it was there. KAREN BREWSTER: It was probably there. BEAR KETZLER: No, it was there.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It was there, yeah. It was there. So I don’t know what kind of schooling, BIA or mission. I have a feeling, more like government. Some kind of government.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, one thing I can say.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t think mission -- he -- I don’t think Al had influence of any mission. I really don’t. I’ve never seen that in him. Or his family.

KAREN BREWSTER: One thing I can say, that I don’t know if you know, that he wrote sort of a memoir, autobiography thing. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I’m really glad to hear that. KAREN BREWSTER: And it’s in the archives. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, wonderful. KAREN BREWSTER: It’s not --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, so we don’t need to argue that point. KAREN BREWSTER: So we can look that up. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. But --

KAREN BREWSTER: You know, it’s not a book length. It’s, you know, a short thing. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, I know. I know. KAREN BREWSTER: But we do have a copy of it, so -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: I’m glad he did that. I’m glad.

But anyway, the point is, and I have no far -- idea how far he was in school. Whether he go to fifth grade like Charlie and like a lot of school. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: BIA schools only went to eighth grade. KAREN BREWSTER: Some people only went to third grade. Because elders --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And some BIA schools only went through sixth grade. And um, and anyhow, so I don’t know -- but at some quality in him, he had a teacher inform him to get a hold -- And I know she was telling it because of Alaska Native Brotherhood.

Of -- get a hold of William Paul, Alaska Native Brotherhood. She saw, I am sure.

And this is another thing I want people to never discount their influence. ’Cause that teacher influenced Al. She saw something in him, said contact --

And I don’t know how the heck that teacher knew about William Paul, because let me tell you, hon. Texas -- I mean Tlingit country and Tanana was as far away in those days as we are from Africa right now. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It was really foreign. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And yet, she knew, and she gave him an address to contact. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he did. And they developed a dialogue, and Al and William Paul started influencing him about claiming land. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, Al didn’t know whether to believe him or not. And Al, at some young age, as a young man, went -- and we don’t know how, to Washington state to see for himself if there was, in fact, such a thing as indigenous land being set aside for indigenous.

And he had a hell of an adventure out there. KAREN BREWSTER: So William --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: My guess is he went down, probably by steamboat. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. He would’ve had to.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He maybe had some money. But he walked back from Washington to Alaska. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, my goodness. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yes.

’Cause he had an adventure that I’ll tell you about ’cause he told me it.

BEAR KETZLER: But he traveled all over the United States, though, too. He went -- he just didn’t go to Washington.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t know how far he traveled. I know he lived, of course, in the -- he wasn’t checking into hotels. KAREN BREWSTER: No. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok.

And he, I know, had wonderful dialogues with some blacks that told him exactly how they were treated.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, at that point William Paul was already living in Seattle? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Now, he did not go see William Paul. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He went to go and see if what William was saying was true. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he did find that truth. He found that. He saw for himself where land was set aside for indigenous.

And I don’t know how much he traveled, or I don’t know how long he was there, but I know he walked back ’cause he told me.

And one of the reasons he told me the story is -- and my guess is he must've been around the Calgary area, which had -- you know, that’s ranch land. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, like Colorado is to the midway, you know. Calgary.

He’s walking. Anyway, there’s this huge herd of cattle that spot him. Now, cattle, when you’re a rancher, they never see a walking man. They only see a horse and a man on horseback.

And this critter walking down the middle of the whatever, big range that they were on, made them curious, and they had to go check it out. And cattle are curious. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They came up on him, and course, he ain’t gonna outrun a herd of cattle. He knew better than to run. They woulda just ran after him.

Anyway, he kept walking, and then he said it really got scary because they all surrounded him. And they sniff him, you know. Their little wet noses all wanted to (sniffing sounds). What is this?

And, of course, by then, he’s getting a little bit like, you know, anxiety, I imagine. I can’t imagine what it was like. He knew they weren’t going to eat him. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s good. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They weren’t like a pack of wolves. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But yet, he could get trampled.

And I don’t know exactly if he walked out of it, or if he maybe at some point realized he could scare ’em off, I don’t know, but he narrated that. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s a good story. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, uh.

KAREN BREWSTER: But so, he came back to Nenana? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he came back to Alaska. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, he was out for quite a while.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Tanana. And told ’em, we gotta do something. We got to do something. We got to set aside our land.

And da-da-da. And they were not interested. In fact, he has -- during one of his dialogues, he had a niece come up to him and say, "Uncle, are you in your right mind?"

Now I’m not going to tell her who did that, but to make a long story short, you know, this is something that would hurt a family. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know. So I can’t tell you the name of the niece, even though I know the name. But this is like, are you crazy? KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: But what's so -- that’s why I was asking.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so, he come to Nenana. I’m at a potlatch in Nenana. I am a kid. I’m a farm girl. I know land is important, and we gotta do something.

This man gets up and say, we -- and I knew it was Al Starr ’cause I knew him and my dad were kinda friendly.

And uh, anyhow, we gotta do something about our land. And the people’d say, ah, "Shut up. Go sit down. Don’t stir up trouble. Go sit down. Don’t stir up." You know.

And he’d turn, and he dejectedly went and sat back down. And I was baffled by that, ’cause to me he was making sense.

And I was confused, why would the people not say, "Ok, Al. It’s great. What can we do?" You know, it was -- like I say, it was seeing it there, baffled. Well, anyhow, uh.

KAREN BREWSTER: Do you know why people didn’t take up the cause? BEAR KETZLER: It was -- it was -- most of it was -- I mean I’ve heard him as a kid. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: And he was still standing up at potlatches saying that, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Even the Native land claims had already started some momentum, but he would talk about the land, and um --

So at that time, I would, you know just -- it was just not to put any attention on the Native people. You know, not to --

KAREN BREWSTER: Not make waves?

BEAR KETZLER: Upset the -- yeah, not make waves. Not upset the federal government or the powers that be. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: I mean, ’cause in those days, everybody had their systems, and they were pretty locked in. It ain’t like free enterprise today. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: As we know it. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: So you were -- you know, you had to be real careful ’cause you can be -- no jobs, no money. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Yes.

The power relationships between the government and the Native people was way different. BEAR KETZLER: Way different. KAREN BREWSTER: Back then. Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It wasn’t felt before statehood. As much. I mean, yes, they had the hunting laws, which was a horrible thing. And a lot of them were not -- they enforced --

I mean, even under American law, aboriginal law had paramount. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But they ignored -- always ignored, aboriginal rights. And they ignored aboriginal law.

KAREN BREWSTER: They being the government? DELOIS BURGGRAF: That was the only whatever. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they enforced their own rules.

Like, uh, now I wanted to make a point. First of all, you got to understand, when I’m in Nenana, it is in 1950’s. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: People I’m meeting and talking with, and coming to visit my dad, were 70 years old.

The first whites that come to Nenana was only 50 years prior. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They’re -- were adults before the first -- and the first white man that came permanently was a man named Jimmy Duke. BEAR KETZLER: Jimmy Duke. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Who set up a little store. I think first he had been a roadhouse. KAREN BREWSTER: Probably.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause in those days, the highway was the river, in a way. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You would have dog trails in the winter on the ice. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And of a -- not on the ice, but the trail -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, between -- KAREN BREWSTER: It was on the ice in some places. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. A lot of times, it was between, you know, anyway.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, yeah. It would’ve been to Tanana and Minto. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. Right. KAREN BREWSTER: That was the main route.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Exactly. Yeah, Minto, Nenana, and Fairbanks, you know.

Anyway. But, of course, sometimes it’d go over land or whatever, KAREN BREWSTER: And Tolovana. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And cut, you know.

There would be trails and then the river. And usually about every 25 miles would be a -- KAREN BREWSTER: Roadhouse. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Roadhouse. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Where you pulled a team in, the animals were taken care of, and then the men come in. And if they had money, they could buy a meal. If they didn’t, they'd buy a place to bunk. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Unless they wanted to siwash it. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, so anyhow, that first whites that came were GI’s in 1898 to survey. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They did that in Nenana. Came up and begin to guess what the US government had in mind. KAREN BREWSTER: Railroad. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t know. Maybe.

BEAR KETZLER: They went to -- they were just surveying the land. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But they had markers. BEAR KETZLER: (inaudible) KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: We found the markers when your -- you know, when we moved across river, hon. The markers that they had surveyed in. I mean, they were stainless steel for -- to make that homestead land.

KAREN BREWSTER: Because for -- for them, they thought it was their land.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, I don’t know what it was. KAREN BREWSTER: They didn’t see Native -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: American policy, you know, yes. KAREN BREWSTER: They didn’t see -- BEAR KETZLER: See, some of the areas --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well no, the villagers, there were three tribes, clans. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: The three major clans in Nenana itself. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: On that junction of the Nenana-Tanana.

The three major clans. The Fishtail, the Caribou Tail, and the Middle clan were there.

And Chief Thomas was up at Wood River. Chief Thomas was the, huh, paramount chief to -- the people described to me. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He was like the president of the United States. KAREN BREWSTER: So he was like --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, of course, his jurisdiction was -- KAREN BREWSTER: Like Andrew -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- the Tanana.

And they met at Nuch’a’lawoya, which of course, whites called Tanana.

And the last one meeting they had there when I was in Tanana for that first chiefs reorganizing.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right, in ’62.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: In ’62, I met Grandma Elia who was in her 90’s, who narrated the last meeting that she remembered.

And uh, of the Nuch’a’lawoya. And that is the -- where they congressed. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They congressed in Nuch’a’lawoya. It wasn’t like an every four years or whatever. When they called, when the paramount chief would call a congress, a meeting, that’s where they’d go.

And they would do business, but they’d also do sports and competitions, you know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Would they do a potlatch? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, the whole, everything. BEAR KETZLER: For days. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It would be days. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: There was, I mean, like --

KAREN BREWSTER: So Chief Thomas was the equivalent of Chief Andrew Isaac on the other side? DELOIS BURGGRAF: On the other side. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, that’s a good example. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Or maybe more. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause the role -- And this is where American law and indigenous law are really different. And that was up here as well as Lower 48. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Do you know about Hiawatha? KAREN BREWSTER: No. DELOIS BURGGRAF: See, that is such a tragedy.

KAREN BREWSTER: I know the name, but I don’t know that I know the story.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He was the great peacemaker. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. See I know the name.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The law of indigenous land, a leader was to maintain peace.

Hiawatha had to confront a man who killed three of his kids. And a normal man likes vengeance, but he knew he had to face and make peace.

I mean, these were people of power that I don’t think the mind of the normal European white man can understand.

KAREN BREWSTER: No. I would agree with you.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I mean that was their purpose. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That was Chief Thomas’s purpose. Maintain peace.

And you do that -- the clans are always have their, like, family quarrels, you gotta -- but his job was to make sure they had enough jurisdiction to provide for their families.

And if a hunting area got a little sparse over here, maybe somebody’d have to let ’em have a little room here. You know, these -- management of resources. KAREN BREWSTER: They were negotiators.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And also, they were given -- you know, when you did your fishing or whatever, your chief, this was their bank. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The chief was the bank. You had your fish for your year for your family, but you gave some for the bank.

And if there was resources necessary, the chief was in charge of the bank. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, to redistribute?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That was the money. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, as when Alfred Attla at that -- He said, "That is our money." And that -- I mean, that is the facts. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That was exactly it. That was their job, was to maintain peace, make sure people had enough to sustain themselves, and uh --

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, that’s why I was wondering about the response to Al Starr, whether it was he was stirring things up and -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, let’s go a little -- Well, we’ll get there. KAREN BREWSTER: They wanted to keep the peace. DELOIS BURGGRAF: We’ll get there. You’re getting ahead. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You gotta understand. Al Starr’s on the Yukon River. The Yukon had sternwheelers 50 years. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Running up and down the Yukon. Before Nenana. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The first boat that came up the Tanana was the Tanana Chief. 1898? BEAR KETZLER: 1898, in August. Yep. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Came up for the first time. BEAR KETZLER: Captain Morgan.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because it was believed that the Tanana was inhabitable for sternwheelers. First of all, it’s very silty, and the sandbars, you know --

KAREN BREWSTER: It’s terrible to navigate.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Terrible, right. They make a sandbar here, and then the next month. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Or week, it’s another. Yeah, it’s very difficult.

And so, you cannot imagine. I mean, I can show you a picture, it’s a very little picture, of Talbert John. Um, who's narrated what it was like when that sternwheeler came up. He was a little boy. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the women and the kids were sent out to the woods because, you know, that boat was coming up. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They didn’t know what their purpose. KAREN BREWSTER: It’s a threat, for sure.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, of course, the men are out front with their bows and arrows to defend.

And what is interesting is that Chief Thomas could read. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Now I, is -- you know, I’m not -- most chiefs and a lot of the people knew five or six languages, ok?

And I mean, Chief Thomas, apparently, probably knew five or six languages, because from Nenana, part of their trading expedition was go into Hudson Bay area. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, that, uh, Fort Gibbon -- oh nah, nah, nah, nah. BEAR KETZLER: Fort Yukon, no? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yukon. Fort Yukon. KAREN BREWSTER: Fort Yukon. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. And, of course, they had a trail over. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, you had that -- that time.

And uh, anyway, the captain of the Tanana Chief, um, had dialogue with Chief Thomas in the sense that Chief Thomas saw the name, Tanana Chief, and he told the captain. BEAR KETZLER: On the side of the boat. KAREN BREWSTER: On the boat, yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He told the captain, "I’m the Tanana chief." KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: "White man be good. Indian be good. White man be bad, Indian be bad." He was --

KAREN BREWSTER: He was laying down the law.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they provided for them. They gave them moose meat. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They had, you know, a boat. They had two boats. The Potlatch was named one. The Potlatch had the provisions. And the Tanana Chief carried the men and, um -- BEAR KETZLER: The wood. Firewood. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And -- and the wood, right. And anyway, at some point, I think it might have been at Nenana, they lost a big quantity of salt.

’Cause one of the villagers saw that salt and grabbed the sack and hung onto it ’cause it was so valuable. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh the -- yeah, that was valuable.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: In those days, Interior people, even up until -- Well, I think Elizabeth might -- no, no, no. Tommy Strand was the latest one. They would get goiters from lack of -- KAREN BREWSTER: Salt? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Iodine. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Iodine. The Interior region had -- had -- it was -- Elizabeth had one.

KAREN BREWSTER: It was a hard life living off the land in the Interior. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It was, you know, and like I say, you know, now they traded. They had arranged trades in some form ’cause I know in Nenana, they traded way before US. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Even before Vitus Bering, I think. For tobacco from -- KAREN BREWSTER: From Russia. Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, there were all those coastal -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: It was in bricks, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I mean, I -- like I say, I know there’s stories of that trading. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And --

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I was thinking, too, what -- you know, Al Starr saying about, we need to do something about our land, and the resp -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, oh, ok.

KAREN BREWSTER: And the -- and the response, but it made me think about the -- was it 1915 when the chiefs met with Judge Wickersham? BEAR KETZLER: Wickersham. Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: And they talked about these things. And how that -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Now Judge Wickersham initiated that.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, but how that trickled down to the response to Al. That why weren’t people more receptive? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um. KAREN BREWSTER: 'Cause they don't really have -- BEAR KETZLER: Well.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uhm, I don’t think they saw the connection. BEAR KETZLER: No, they didn’t see the connection. They didn’t see -- understand it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, also it had been, you know, a long time. BEAR KETZLER: Right. Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he talked about moving them to reservations.

BEAR KETZLER: Everybody kinda gives credit to Hud -- to um -- to uh -- Wickersham, but really who organized the meeting, who stressed that it really needed to be, was a guy named Hudson Stuck. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. The -- BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, ’cause he -- KAREN BREWSTER: -- Episcopal minister.

BEAR KETZLER: Once they announced they were going to build a railroad, he was very -- he was, you know -- He was from Europe, but he lived in Texas, and he was very familiar with the indigenous community experienced when the railroad came into California.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: It just wiped them out. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it was terrible.

BEAR KETZLER: And that’s what his vision was. "Oh my god, they’re going to wipe out all these people." And uh, so he made a plea to Wickersham and other civic leaders at that time, and so that’s why it was called. But --

KAREN BREWSTER: And -- and you’re right -- BEAR KETZLER: The concept of reservations. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: That was their solution. KAREN BREWSTER: That was their solution. BEAR KETZLER: Was -- Yeah, and that was like, you know, so foreign of an idea.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Well, and it -- it -- the Native, the chiefs, the leaders who met with Wickersham, they did not want reservations. BEAR KETZLER: No. KAREN BREWSTER: They made it very clear.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, yeah, they were -- they were fine where they were. Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: They were very smart, and they made it very clear that that was not going to work for them. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: And that’s in the records. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: Sure. KAREN BREWSTER: From that. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. They were --

BEAR KETZLER: Chief Thomas was the main -- KAREN BREWSTER: He was there. BEAR KETZLER: -- leader of the whole thing, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, that’s why I was wondering if there --

BEAR KETZLER: He’s probably the one that called all the chiefs to come to Fairbanks. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t know, hon. I think Wickersham called it.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, I know, but I’m saying that the -- as far as organization in getting the Native community to Fairbanks. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. No, they -- didn’t they meet -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: No. KAREN BREWSTER: Did they meet in Fairbanks? Oh yeah. Yeah.

Well, which leads sort of the -- even in the '50’s, when things started coming together with your dad, Al Ketzler, Sr. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: And Charlie (Purvis), and, you know, all those people. How did they get everybody to come together? Because they were in far-flung communities.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I’m telling you, hon, it’s a stitch at a time. At a time. At a time. It took months and months and months.

KAREN BREWSTER: Is it ’cause they were -- sorta the potlatch, you knew -- they had a system?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, Charlie, then, had met Al. He came up. KAREN BREWSTER: Al Starr. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Al Starr was, um, ok.

KAREN BREWSTER: I have to make sure to distinguish -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: He was from Tanana. KAREN BREWSTER: -- which Al. BEAR KETZLER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He was from Tanana. But he had married a woman from Minchumina. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And um, which had -- that Minchumina band, most of them had died. And uh, they lived -- Oh god, son. You gotta help me remember, where did Al Starr live before he came to Nenana?

BEAR KETZLER: Well, he lived in the Kantishna. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Kantishna. That’s right. Yeah. Kantishna. BEAR KETZLER: Yep, by the Muddy River.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And had how many kids? Let’s see, he had Paul, Anna. BEAR KETZLER: Florence. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh, there was an -- one that died. BEAR KETZLER: Florence. Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he had Florence. He had -- no, a boy that drowned in Nenana. And -- and Florence. BEAR KETZLER: Randy.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Was Randy? I don’t think born yet. I don’t think Randy was born yet. BEAR KETZLER: Randy was born same year I was. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But he had these four kids, I’m sure. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Two girls, two boys. And Paul was about thirteen.

These kids had -- his family had grown in the Kantishna. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Isolated.

Very unusual for Native people to live isolated. But her people had died out. They had their hunting and trapping. And they lived off the land their normal way. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then Al is the one who wanted them to come to Nenana for education. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s why he moved in.

And it was so hard on them. On them spiritually and financially and socially and culturally. ’Cause number one, if you remember, Elizabeth did not speak English. And even Nenana women could not speak her Minchumina language. That was hard on her.

KAREN BREWSTER: So Elizabeth Starr was Al’s wife? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Al’s wife. BEAR KETZLER: Al’s wife.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And those kids, oh god. Oh my goodness. Anyway, it was really hard on them.

And I remember Paul, the son, oh, I don’t know how long they’d lived there in Nenana. Months.

Anyway, he gathered up his little sisters and threw ’em on a sled, hitched up the dogs and was heading back to Kantishna all by himself. The kids, they’d had it. It was so hard. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And there was no social help. I mean, the -- everybody was so isolated and so -- you know, you’re on your own. There’s no resources except your own little unit. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Your own family.

And, like I say, in the meanwhile, it was after that when Charlie and Al started dialoguing. It took a while for them to get settled. I mean for Al and Elizabeth and the kids. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: To get settled enough to even know Charlie. KAREN BREWSTER: So -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know what I mean.

KAREN BREWSTER: So Al and your dad -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Al Starr and -- KAREN BREWSTER: Became acquainted and started talking?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they become acquainted. I don’t know exactly how Al and -- and Charlie, my dad, you know. Al --

BEAR KETZLER: I think he was introduced by Chief Alexander. Frank, who (inaudible) DELOIS BURGGRAF: It could’ve been Frank. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, Frank -- Charlie and Frank. BEAR KETZLER: He was the chief.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Charlie -- Right, the chief of Nenana and my dad had a real tight friendship. BEAR KETZLER: Right, right. ’Cause I know Chief -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: In fact, they took my dad -- KAREN BREWSTER: That would make sense. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- under his wing, under their wing.

He was this poor little white boy, bringing up all the -- oh, they were poor. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: We were -- I mean, god -- KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it's -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- clothes on our back.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it’s not unusual that a -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, um. KAREN BREWSTER: -- a non-Native would learn -- needed to learn from the Natives how to live in a place. BEAR KETZLER: Oh, sure, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Otherwise, you wouldn't --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Charlie was never white or brown or white. I -- Charlie had dialogue. Charlie also -- there's another -- I mean, God almighty, we could spend a life talking about Charlie.

But, I know Charlie at one point was in dialogue with a black man. And the black man was saying something about white men or something, you know. And Charlie says, "Well, you know, I’m white." And the black man looks at him. "Charlie, but you ain’t too white." KAREN BREWSTER: So --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that is -- that is Charlie. Charlie was never too white that he couldn’t hear somebody who was not. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He could hear a black man, a brown man. I suppose if a green man showed up, you know. KAREN BREWSTER: So Ch --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that is the -- he's a rarer man. BEAR KETZLER: So that he -- you know, he was really close to Chief Alexander. KAREN BREWSTER: So Chief Alexander -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Chief Alexander, uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: -- was the chief of Nenana? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Of Nenana.

BEAR KETZLER: I think, if I remember correctly, um, you know, the -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s true. BEAR KETZLER: Charlie recognized, you know, very quickly the injustice to the Native people there. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, he observed it. BEAR KETZLER: And at that time -- Yeah -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: The Chamber of -- BEAR KETZLER: -- first hand. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- Commerce -- Charlie belonged to the Chamber of Commerce. BEAR KETZLER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, the Nenana Native Council had always sponsored the North American Dog Races and Nenana Dog Races.

Frank had set out -- (to Bear) this is a story you might not know. KAREN BREWSTER: So who’s Frank? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Frank Alexander. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok, his -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: The chief. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Had set out the cans in the bars, which Nenana, at that time, had about thirteen bars. And you don’t remember all of that.

BEAR KETZLER: No, I remember seven of ’em. KAREN BREWSTER: Rough town.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And anyway, it’s all along one row and then part down, you know, that one -- BEAR KETZLER: First Avenue. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- red -- BEAR KETZLER: On the main street. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- you know that one. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Anyway, the other -- anyway. So the bottom line is, they put out donation cans in all the bars to donate for prizes for the dog mushers.

And uh, you know, Frank is chief, and he goes to gather them up. He’s going to get dog racing time. He goes to gather them up. There’s no cans. Well, where’s the cans?

Well, the Chamber of Commerce took them. Well, Frank -- Charlie over here is going to Chamber of Commerce meetings, and he hears at the meeting that they’ve got this pot of money. Oh, wow. Charlie --

Of course, Frank had already gone to Charlie and said, "Charlie, why did the Chamber of Commerce take our money from the cans?" And Charlie said, "They did?" You know, "I don’t know." He said, "I’ll find out."

So he goes to the meeting. And he hears about this pot of money that the Chamber has. And Charlie, of course, he knows where they got it. But he acts, (gasp) "Oh, wow! How did we get all this money? How did that happen?"

Well, they’re all trying to kind of stonewall and (throat clearing), well, you know, somebody donated it and well, you know. And they’re, you know.

So he hears the report of what they say is the amount of money. X amount of dollars, which I can’t recall the exact amount.

So he lets Frank know how much money they took. And he says, "Ok, Frank. This is the law. You can say any amount you have -- want to, but you go call the law."

Which he had to call the marshal. "Have him come up to your house and report this money is stolen, and you want five thousand dollars back."

Now, to make a long story short, Frank let ’em get off easy. He did not do what Charlie said. He let them return the money to an Indian that they stole. Ooh, they hated Charlie for that, them white boys. Uh-huh. That’s the games they play. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that is the truth. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, and that’s -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that is -- BEAR KETZLER: That was common. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, that’s a good example. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, it's just an example. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Just an example. KAREN BREWSTER: It’s a -- it's good example of --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Just of the blatant disregard and disrespect.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. I think Chief Frank told, you know, Charlie. "You know -- " ’cause um, the statehood and other things that were being talked about, the land.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, they weren’t talking about statehood yet. BEAR KETZLER: Oh, sure they were. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, sure they -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Not yet. BEAR KETZLER: Oh yeah. Yeah, they were. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, they weren’t, son. You weren’t there.

BEAR KETZLER: I know I wasn’t, but I know when the statehood discussion started. That’s in the history books.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Hon, the statehood discussions were barely there when I married your dad. BEAR KETZLER: Did you -- (to Karen) You know when they -- KAREN BREWSTER: When -- I can’t remember. I kinda think --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’59 is when statehood. KAREN BREWSTER: Well -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: I married in ’55. KAREN BREWSTER: -- ’59 is when it was official. BEAR KETZLER: Official. KAREN BREWSTER: ’58 was the, um, actual signing. ’55 was when they had the constitutional convention, I think, here.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Right, right. That’s when they st -- You know, like I say, it wasn’t until after that -- KAREN BREWSTER: But I thi -- But I -- BEAR KETZLER: It’s in the '40’s. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. BEAR KETZLER: I think they introduced (inaudible) -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, no, no. KAREN BREWSTER: I mean, I think there -- you know, there may have been chatter. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: It wasn’t necessarily official.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Like I say, hon, it’s a very small conduit of people. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Who wanted statehood. There were -- most people wanted an independent nation. They -- the United States, would not allow that on the ballot. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Do you want to be a state or a territory or a -- your own nation? KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They would not allow that question. They only allowed, you have a choice, stay a territory or a state. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And a state of 103 million acres out of 365 million. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Which only is a colony.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Well, and, as you say, there may have been -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that is -- KAREN BREWSTER: Um, mumblings, discussion, earlier than ’55 amongst, you know, Senator Bartlett and Gruening and those powers that be.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Goes way behind -- hon, politics didn’t exist then. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Republican and Democrat really was so irrelevant to the world then.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, ’cause we were a territory, so it’s different. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In that territory. In the territory it was really -- KAREN BREWSTER: But there were probably mumblings.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And these they -- appointed -- the governor was appointed by, you know, who the hell is -- whatever. KAREN BREWSTER: By Congress, I think. I don’t remember. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh yeah. Yeah, I know it was by Congress. KAREN BREWSTER: Anyway.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But it’s a political plum that -- or maybe somebody they wanted to get rid of out of DC. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Maybe they sent him up here. KAREN BREWSTER: But so -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know.

KAREN BREWSTER: So your dad started getting involved in some of this discussion with Chief Alexander and Al Starr? DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Al -- Chief Alexander was not so much a land claim person. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. It was Al Starr and --? DELOIS BURGGRAF: It was Al Starr.

KAREN BREWSTER: And your dad started getting -- talking and hearing about it?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, he researched what Al Starr had. The paperwork that Al had accumulated. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: From, like, William Paul. And other responses of leg --

Al wrote to every -- anybody who was a dignitary. Al had written to them about this unresolved issue. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok?

And like I say, he had a little bag, black bag, he kept under his bed. Pulled it out, opened it up, and opened it up to Charlie. He trusted Charlie enough.

And Charlie went through that and blew his mind over what really was the facts of Alaska. This is indigenous land, and that the economic system was totally, totally upside down. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because, then indigenous should’ve been calling the shots. They could’ve leased the land, let the people use it. Like the railroad.

And gotten remuneration, you know. It could’ve all been a different story instead of being the beggars. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Did --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that’s how people treated them, like they're somehow -- They were called poor. KAREN BREWSTER: I know.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, even Emily Ticasuk, at the university, got really irritated. They kept talking about poor Natives at some meeting that -- and she stood up, "What do you mean, poor Natives?" I mean, hon, these were always efficient -- How do you think they survived? KAREN BREWSTER: I know.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: When his little grandmother’s father was killed by that German down in -- BEAR KETZLER: Windy Valley. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Nenana River on the whatever -- Oh god, I don’t know exactly. BEAR KETZLER: Cantwell area. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Cantwell area, right.

Anyway, there were how many, five kids? Four or five kids. Fat, healthy, well-clothed, healthy kids. And that man, Nagita (sp?), had helped that damn German, who said he was a baron. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Gave him provisions and even a couple of dogs, which is like me giving you a car. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: So he could navigate.

And then he come up on him later on. The stupid German had ate the dogs and was really impoverished, had a very pregnant wife.

Went to go into -- he was mad. He was very angry. I mean, you're putting up with these stupid white men, it gets irritating. KAREN BREWSTER: I know. I agree.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know? It really does. And apparently -- my guess is, he was going to open the sled. You know, they have thing -- you cover your sled with kind of a tarp or something. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So that things stay dry and -- when you’re driving dogs and stuff. KAREN BREWSTER: And you don’t lose things off the sled.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, no, they won’t be, but, I mean, it’s just a protector. And that’s also where the kids ride. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because the kids are under -- they’re safe. Otherwise, your eyes might get poked out. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: By a willow. KAREN BREWSTER: And it’s warm down there.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So the kids, everything is -- not only, you’re warm and cozy, but your provisions are protected.

And anyhow, he went over and, you know, lifted the flap and probably was going to get something out or whatever, and anyway, this is when the German killed him. Right in front of his family. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I, you know, your grandma -- you know, the story that she told Nora is, they were all afraid they were going to get all killed. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I’m sure. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. And um -- KAREN BREWSTER: That’s a terrible --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But those were fat, healthy, well-clothed kids.

KAREN BREWSTER: No, it’s a terrible history, that relationship, how non-Natives treated Natives.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And one -- one of the only reason the man was even brought to trial was a miner named Barry forced the government.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I was going to say, he went to trial? That’s pretty amazing. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It is amazing. KAREN BREWSTER: For that time period. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so, anyway.

BEAR KETZLER: They still found him not guilty, but -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Of course. KAREN BREWSTER: Really? Uch, god. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Found him not guilty.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it is -- that -- it shows -- it's the terrible history, and that’s partially, you know, the story of land claims is why part of it’s so amazing, is you see that they --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But then again, this is the incongruent part. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: In the -- back, ok. 1898. The Tanana Chief comes up. All of that transform -- it’s like a Martian landing. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. KAREN BREWSTER: An invasion.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ten -- you know, transformation. And then about, what, five years later, whatever, that other boat comes up -- comes to the Chena people. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. Captain Adams’ boat, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know. BEAR KETZLER: The one where --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. Right. KAREN BREWSTER: That came to Fai -- BEAR KETZLER: That came to Fairbanks. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: That’s the one that claimed came first -- (he gets talked over here) -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. Right. And those miners, you know, Pedro saw the smoke from the sternwheeler. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok.

So the transformation -- you know, the Tanana Chief came up. Then, you know, a few years later, here come another boat. And they couldn’t make it. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, and they -- KAREN BREWSTER: Downriver of Fairbanks. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they -- and the Chena people. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Is where they banked. Like at Nenana, was Nenana people.

And the Chena people just kinda went ahead and evaporated and just kinda moved out.

Now, some of the Nenana people moved out. Minto went and more of -- more of them moved back down to Minto. BEAR KETZLER: Oh, yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But then, at the same time, the church came. Not at the same time, but -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Eventually. DELOIS BURGGRAF: A decade or so later. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And made a deal that they would educate. You know, give them education, and -- you know, which the Native people wanted education. They wanted to know how is this white man do what he does, you know.

And, of course, they didn’t know to have control of the curricula. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because the church’s agenda was to transform them into Episcopalians. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the Catholics were to transform them into Catholics. It was not an education. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It was a transformation that they’re going to -- Ok.

And then, they made a deal with the church. The indigenous people made the deal with the church to let them have land in exchange for the education. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And also to provide provisions for the kids when they’re in school. Well, that happened, and the nursing happened, and then 19 -- What year was the flu? Huge flu. Which now we know is bird flu. It got identified.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. The 1919 epidemic. BEAR KETZLER: (inaudible as he's talked over)

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, yeah. See you'll hear -- in a short period of time, is major things happened. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That big flu.

KAREN BREWSTER: It was huge cultural change. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Huge. KAREN BREWSTER: Huge, yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And who nursed them, but the nurses. KAREN BREWSTER: At those missions. DELOIS BURGGRAF: The missions. There was help. There was provi -- like I say, there was the incongruence. BEAR KETZLER: (inaudible in the background) DELOIS BURGGRAF: Here is brutality and stupidity over here, and yet over here is comfort and support. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then, another thing happened, you know. That got over, and then, of course, other things. Smallpox, diphtheria, you know. That start hitting here and there.

His little aunt got diphtheria. I don’t know if you knew that Clara got diphtheria, which is very serious. She lived.

And uh, then smallpox, and, of course, the normal chicken pox, smallpox, that kind of stuff. And uh, then, uh. TV. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, you know, just bam. Bam. Slam. On the people that all people were powerless.

I mean, sure we blame China for whatever, coronavirus, but, you know, they used to call it the Spanish flu. The first -- KAREN BREWSTER: The first one? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Bird flu. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They blamed Spain, you know. Spanish flu.

So anyhow, all of this, and, of course, the blame. You know, there’s the blame. And who knows. And I never have heard a Native -- I never heard a Native blame the white man for any of the diseases.

And fact, I asked Meta what she thought. She said, it come from the ground. To her, it come from the ground. And I was referring to TB. I said, well where, how where'd it --? She said, come from somewhere. Anyhow, like I say, the bottom line is the incongruence. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: There was benefits. There was salt. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: There was this. There was that. KAREN BREWSTER: There was flour.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And there was danger. Like his uncle told me that one of the early tragic stories was some white man gave, you know, this Native man, he handed him this rifle. He said, "Oh here, you can have it."

Well, this man has this rifle. Wow, this magic, you know. Wow. And he sees a moose, and he’s shooting and shooting, and the moose is not falling. The -- shooting and shooting.

And he turned to a kid and pulled the trigger, and the kid drops. It was a .22. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. The moose was too far to -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And a .22 on a moose -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- it was just go -- you know, like a bee sting. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Or whatever. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh -- KAREN BREWSTER: Terrible.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Anyway, to make a long story short, these are real things that happened in this social -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- collision. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that is the transforming era. And like I say, I came 50 years. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And --

KAREN BREWSTER: And you still got to know the elders.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I got to know how they lived before I got to know and see, and like I say, one of my things. I went to my little friend’s house. And indigenous love cameras. They love the cameras.

And the first thing you do when you went to their house, they show you their pictures. And, you know, my little friends, we go, ok. I'm in their house, and they bring out their photo albums. And I, "Oh, who’s that?" "Oh, that’s my uncle." "Oh, where’s he live?" "Oh, he died." "h, who’s that?" "Oh, that’s my cousin." "Oh, where does she live?" "Oh, she died." "Oh, where’s --?"

I am realizing, I am seeing only who has survived. Frank Alexander had lost a wife, and he lost his children. BEAR KETZLER: (inaudible in background) DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because he couldn’t provide for them.

Eklutna (boarding school) took Nina. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Two boys got adopted out. And Jenny, the youngest, Nina’s sister, got adopted by Grandma Elia. Raised Jenny.

And uh, Susie Boatman had lost a husband. And six kids. Oh, Frank. Let’s see. No, Daisy. Daisy, the one that Frank married. Daisy had lost a husband and six or eight kids. I mean, like I say, what I saw was what was left. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I mean, I am living with people who had insurmountable losses. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Should’ve been the bitterest, angriest people on earth. And Frank, you would never have called angry. BEAR KETZLER: Hm-mm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You would never have called Daisy -- even though she’s a born hunchback. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. Well, and you say, that’s the --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, this is where I entered this world. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And became aware. Holy cow.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so, that -- it is -- So how is it that they got excited about land claims? Because you said they weren’t angry.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then they had so many other problems, land was hardly relevant. They were trying to survive. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I was in Minto when -- Oh god, let’s see. I was fifteen, so that would’ve been ’54. I was invited down for the spring -- they always in April. KAREN BREWSTER: Dog races. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Minto has their dog races, right.

And we’re down there, and it’s celebration time, and the village is in the playful mood. And oh my god, George Titus and all these -- Annie and George, you know, and -- BEAR KETZLER: Charlie Titus.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: All of these people. I am with them. And all of a sudden, (gasp) ah, here come Fish and Wildlife. Here come the plane. It came, it circled, and it landed.

Two Fish and Wildlife guys come out. A judge comes out. They set up in the store, which was the village store.

They owned the -- what you call that kind of store? Where they had a loan for it or something. I forget. They had some kind of a -- BEAR KETZLER: (Trading post?) DELOIS BURGGRAF: I forget the name. In those days.

They set up court. They called a man in. "Your trap, your beaver trap is closer than --" whatever, fifteen feet or whatever. I don’t remember the exact dimensions.

And the Native man, "Yeah. Yeah." "All right, $50 fine." So he’d get in his pocket. He’d pull out all his money. His brother have to pull out some money. His brother -- so he wouldn’t go to jail.

They call in the next man. Same thing. Next man. They’re going down the list, and I’m with, um, Richard. I’m with Arthur, his brother.

And I, "Arthur! Arthur! When you go there. You stand mute. You don’t say nothing. You -- you just -- that means you plead not guilty. You make them prove. You make them go out and prove your trap is closer. You stand mute. Don’t say nothing."

I’m fifteen years old, giving legal advice, because of that damn Purvis. I -- why -- what else would I know it? God knows, I didn’t learn it in school.

Anyhow, he’s the only man that did not get his money stolen from him by the government. That’s what happened. KAREN BREWSTER: Yep.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I came back. It even makes me cry to this day to think these people went up with -- I came back and told my dad that.

Oh, Charlie had a fit. Oh, Charlie was so mad. Charlie was so mad.

I know the name of that judge. Huh (sigh). KAREN BREWSTER: Um, so -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, this happened. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I know. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, I just -- You know there's --

BEAR KETZLER: They tried to do that in Barrow. DELOIS BURGGRAF: There’s so many stupid things that the -- BEAR KETZLER: You know about that one, right?

KAREN BREWSTER: The Duck-In? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, the Duck-In. Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, like one village -- like I say, this came out of Tanana Chief story, and I forget what man told it, but how this one man -- and this again is not illegal.

When you're -- if you were out of a jurisdiction under American law, you had a right to provide for your family. And he had killed a moose out of season. KAREN BREWSTER: Out of season.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And it was cold winter. And he’s butchering the moose. And a Fish and Wildlife plane land. And he pulled the moose in through that cabin.

Well, the Fish and Wild -- the plane wouldn’t fly or something, and the man, the Fish and Wildlife man, is going to freeze if they don’t let him come into a cabin.

But if you let him come into the cabin, he’ll see the fresh meat. They let that damn man come in, and he arrested them.

KAREN BREWSTER: And they saved his life by letting him come in a cabin. But so --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the kids, at least, ate the moose. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But the dad’s in jail. KAREN BREWSTER: So -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, stories like that.

KAREN BREWSTER: When did you marry Al Ketzler, Sr? DELOIS BURGGRAF: I married him in ’55. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

And was he alr -- I mean, I’m going to hopefully talk to him to figure out, you know, his story. But he was already involved in land claims stuff? DELOIS BURGGRAF: No way. No way. No way. No way. No way. KAREN BREWSTER: So --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He’d come out of the military. He had gotten sent all the way to Fort Rich (Fort Richardson in Anchorage) for his military service, which was foreign country for him. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He’d never been that -- I don’t think he’d been to Anchorage before ever in his life, so I guess you could say it was foreign land.

KAREN BREWSTER: So how did he end up getting involved? It was kind of going around Nenana?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, ok. Now you’re going to hear how we got educated. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: We got married. And, of course, we’re going to live happily ever after and have a nice home, and we’re going to have nice, beautiful babies. All of that.

And uh, like I say, the economy, which we haven’t really touched on the transition of American economies, when I -- when I first started out, there was still quite a bit of residual government money up here. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: From the military and building of bases and --

Remember, they built the dock in Nenana about, what, ’52, I think? BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, so money’s -- then they shut the military down. I think that was around ’53. I think that’s kind of about the last time.

Oh my god, when the military would have some very adventurous times for us Nenana people, because they would have, um, what do you call. Oh, when they pretend to fight.

KAREN BREWSTER: Like a drill? Exercise? DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, they have a word for it. Um.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, I know what you’re talking about. Um. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: Like -- KAREN BREWSTER: Uh.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It’s military exercise. They have one army facing the other army. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, they have a word for it. I can’t think of it. BEAR KETZLER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, I can’t think of it.

Anyway, the bottom line is, they would send down over the hills. You know, here we are in Nenana. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And pretty soon over the hill would be coming a tank, an army tank, and then another Weasel. They call ’em Weasels. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. The tracked vehicles.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, you know, all -- and they’d come across the railroad tracks. They’d march right through Front Street, you know, Hank Street. They’d go down. And then they’d end up out, now -- in those days, where is now the Clear site (Clear Air Force Station, renamed Clear Space Force Station in June 2021).

And have military maneuvers. That’s the word. Military maneuvers, ok. They would do that.

And um, your dad was in one of the military maneuvers. Now he was in Fort Rich (Fort Richardson), but he was sent, yeah, to be the opposing army for the one that was coming in from Fairbanks. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And somehow, anyway, that I -- I -- I do remember him being in the military at that time, and I remember that, you know, us little kids were out. Oh, Al Ketzler’s, Al Ketzler’s in town. Al Ketz -- you know, and he was in there.

And that was one of your favorite stories of when your -- of when I met your dad, was his adventure during that time.

Because him being part Native, um, he had blood circulation. And these poor little GIs are freezing. Their feet and everything. And he’s saving these guys from, you know -- pulling them in and putting them in a warm Weasel or whatever to keep ’em from freezing to death. Anyway, he had a lot of stories like that.

KAREN BREWSTER: I have written here that the -- there was an Alaska Native Brotherhood chapter started in Nenana. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that’s a lot later. KAREN BREWSTER: 1959. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That is when I’m pregnant with Stephanie. See, that’s years. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I have May 1959. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, that’s Stephanie. I was pregnant with her then.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so, did you guys start that chapter?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that was because the chief at that time of Nenana wanted nothing to do with land claims. So we had to create a vehicle. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So that we could invite Kay Hitchcock.

KAREN BREWSTER: And why did you need to invite Kay Hitchcock?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because she had written and used as a thesis. I don’t remember the title of her --

But the point of it was that as long as there is unresolved aboriginal land in Alaska, land claims, everybody has a cloudy title. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It’s not clear title. So that’s why she came down. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Yeah, I --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: To give that talk. And she came down. It was probably November, because she was, I think, still a student at the university.

KAREN BREWSTER: I know she was -- she taught English at the university, and I know what you’re talking about, what she was -- wrote.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But she was becoming -- she was still a student, though. KAREN BREWSTER: And I know -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: To get that degree, so she could be a teacher.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Yeah, I know what you’re talking about. DELOIS BURGGRAF: ’Cause she was widowed. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Her husband had died.

KAREN BREWSTER: And I know what you’re talking about. Um, what’s that called? Um. But then there was the Alaska Native Rights Association.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, that's -- prece KAREN BREWSTER: That’s later? DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- precedes that, ’cause that -- the Alaska Native Rights preceded that event. Which is a white man’s organization. It was up here in Fairbanks.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. Did your dad start that? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BURGGRAF: Well, I mean, him and a couple other people. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know.

KAREN BREWSTER: And that -- what was the purpose of that organization?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: To public education. To get the issue out that there was unresolved aboriginal -- and to educate. It’s a public education.

And also, you know, any indigenous that wanted to come. And uh --

KAREN BREWSTER: So it was a -- a non-Native organization to help educate the non-Native community. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: In support of the Native --?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Right. To educate. Public educate. And I mean, Native, white, black -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It was open to anybody. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: In fact, quite often, that’s how some people heard about it. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I know there’s other people that heard about it from Charlie that never went to that meeting, too. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, one of them is Al Woods. I mean, he was talking to me how he remembers my dad trying to get him involved, and he acknowledges how uninterested he was, you know. He’s kind of, I guess -- I don’t know what he was doing.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh here, this is -- Kay -- at least one version of her paper, "Native -- Natives' Land Rights in the State of Alaska."

Um, was something she was working on a book, so that was later. That was in the '60’s. So that was based on her original paper that she did when she was a student. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Could be, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Um.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, anyway, she came down. It was very cold. I was not -- I still was pregnant. And my guess is because she was a student, it’s probably during that Thanksgiving break. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: To Nenana. And I remember we met in the Native hall.

Alaska Native Brotherhood was given the right to use the Native hall by the chief. Which did not come.

He did not come, because um, he, like I say, did not want to touch land claims.

BEAR KETZLER: Well, it wasn’t him. It was his wife that was opposed.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, it was him. He chewed me -- Oh god, Bear. There’s so much you don’t know.

KAREN BREWSTER: This was Chief Alexander still? DELOIS BURGGRAF: No. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, no. Different chief. BEAR KETZLER: This was -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: I hate to mention the name, ’cause it’s -- oh boy. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It’s one of the biggest clans in the state.

KAREN BREWSTER: But oh -- so, that the -- but the chief in Nenana at that time. DELOIS BURGGRAF: At that time. KAREN BREWSTER: Was not interested in land claims. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, no, no. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, no, no. And so --

KAREN BREWSTER: So how did you hear about Kay Hitchcock to bring her down to talk? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, like I say, hon. BEAR KETZLER: Charlie knew her. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You gotta back up.

We -- you take too many giant steps, and we’re jerking all over. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And like I say, I don’t even know where your last question was. Ok.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it was sort of getting us into the land claims period.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I -- But you oughta understand, I could not have done, and Al could not have done, land claims if a giant thing didn’t happen in our life.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. And what was that?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that is, we got involved organizing a union. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And there is no way on God’s earth we ever, ever planned on organizing a union. Things force you to do things. You can either -- anyhow.

And he was not technically had to do it, because we got married. And before we were married, um, oh god.

Like I say, I had not -- I did not have very much schooling, because quite often I never went to school 'til October because I was working. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then I got in school in October, and I wanted to take accounting, and they offered that course for me. An accounting course in high school in Nenana.

And I’m not sure what month it was, but my dad pulled me out of the school, because of a comment the, uh --

Well, let’s see, principal or superintendent or whatever. And anyhow, he said, "You get your books and come home."

And I didn’t argue with him, because prior years, I argued with him about having to go to school. I didn’t want to go to school. But this time, I decided -- and I now know it was a sign I was growing up.

I decided, ok, I’m in school, I might as well do the best I can. And I was doing very well in school that year.

And this here professor made a declaration that just told -- when I came home, I laughed, and I said, "Well, Gavin said this about me." And Charlie said, "Get your books and bring them home." That was it. So I wasn’t in school anymore.

So anyhow, um, I was still -- I don’t know. I don’t know if I'd been writing to your dad at that time. I don’t think so. I think I broke up. I had gone with your dad a little bit, but then I think I broke up by that time. So anyway, then we got back in New Year's Eve, and then we got married.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you were young when you got married?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh -- Al, he had just turned 22, and I had -- and I was 16. And uh, anyhow, we got married and then went to Ferry for the winter job on the railroad.

And that’s when he took up accounting with a correspondence course. LaSalle. LaSalle correspondence. He didn’t complete it, but he came to Nenana, back to Nenana, in April.

And by that time, the Yutana Barge Lines start getting geared up for the river freight. And uh, they were amused. The Bullock. The president of the company was a woman, and she married a man named Bullock. And Bullock was amused that this young Native guy was studying accounting. "I hear you’re studying accounting." And I remember I was there when he said it.

And he was kinda -- you could tell they were kinda amused at the notion of a Native studying accounting.

And uh, but they hired him as a bookkeeper, which is a different role than accounting. The bookkeeper gathers data for an accountant.

Anyhow, they hired him as bookkeeper in the office of Yutana Barge Lines. With an increase in salary, which the dock workers -- which normally your dad would’ve been doing, would’ve been a dock worker.

And uh, anyhow, um -- So he’s in the office. He’s working with a different pool of people than he normally worked with. ’Cause every summer -- I don’t know how long it was that your dad worked in the summer ’cause he was working on the docks, not as a bookkeeper when we married.

He earned his summer money, working on the docks, you know, with his brothers and your grandpa, my dad. They all worked on the docks.

And anyway, in the fall -- Ok, we got married. Yeah, that summer, he’s working on the docks. And then we moved in the winter and did the study. He came back to Nenana ’cause we were in Ferry.

And we come back to Nenana, and that’s when they heard that he's studying accounting. So ok, this is going into -- we’re not married two years yet. We’re pregnant with you, and uh, that’s when they heard he was studying accounting. So he got hired to be the bookkeeper.

And that winter before, not him, he wasn’t one of the men that gone to Nenana. I mean to Yutana. In the fall. And informed Nenana. Or informed Yutana that they could not work for Yutana at those wages anymore. That something would have to be done.

KAREN BREWSTER: These were the dockworkers?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And this is the dockworkers. Had gone to Yutana the fall before.

Which Al, I don’t even know if he knew about it yet. I’m really not sure. And I might be getting my sequence a little bit a year off. I’m not sure about that. KAREN BREWSTER: But anyway, there was --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But anyway, that led to this new thing. A union in Nenana. Which of course, at the headlines in the Fairbanks Daily News-Miner was that it was going to be a big problem, ’cause the union -- whenever you have unions, you got problems.

And anyhow, at some point -- and I do think I am a year ahead, because your dad left the office, which exempted him from having to be involved in the strike because that was administrative. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He wasn’t a dockworker anymore.

But he at some point threw his hat in the ring. He quit the bookkeeping. Threw his hat in the ring with the dockworkers.

And I was so impressed with what he did. KAREN BREWSTER: Solidarity. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Not solidarity. It was for decent wages.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, yeah, but he’d been a dockworker, and he was -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And see, let me back up. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The dock wages was two dollars an hour, which was not big money. Even for that era.

Prior to that, you know, during the buildup of the military machines and so forth, they got more money than two bucks an hour. That was --

The difference with working for the railroad was stability. You got two bucks an hour, an eight-hour day. Five days a week.

If you worked more than that, you got time and a half, which was three dollars an hour. If you worked more than 40 hours a week.

And you had commissary privileges, and your family got free train rides. If you wanted to go to Fairbanks, you just -- you had a pass, a pass that you could ride up and down on that train anytime. That was what you got.

Well, the government let go of the freighting business, the docks. They let go of it and leased it to this Yutana.

Now Yutana, then, hired the men, the same men, at two dollars an hour. No other benefits. Nothing. Two dollars an hour.

But you were not guaranteed a 40-hour week. You were hired only when the boat came in.

When the boat came in, they’d wake you up at two in the morning. "Al, come on. Get up. Boat’s in. Gotta load the barge."

He’d get up, two in the morning, work four, five hours or ten, whatever it took to load the barge. And then the barges would go.

And then when the barges come back -- you know, like I say, it was no guaranteed 40-hour minimum. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And it was still two dollars an hour, no fringes.

And the men had gone and said, ok, no more. You gotta -- they can’t afford to raise a family on that.

And so, your dad went in and joined with the union. And then it didn’t take a day or so, but my little cabin became union headquarters.

And the cabin was probably about as big as this room, a little bit bigger than this room. Is that fair to say? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: What is that? How many square feet? Six hundred square feet? BEAR KETZLER: Oh, no, no. Probably about 350. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: So I’m involved. And anyhow, they met and strategized and write letters.

And anyhow, at some point, then, your dad got voted to be the negotiator. Him and Hug Fredericks (Hug being a nickname for Hugo, his given name) and Quentin Qualle would meet.

And oh, these Yutana board were -- I -- like I say, hon, maybe this is where it should come to your dad to talk about it, but he would -- in the -- they negotiated a while.

Well, then they wouldn’t negotiate anymore if Qualle was there, so Qualle had to resign. And that left Hug and your dad.

And then Hug personally resigned, because he couldn’t stand the stress. And it left your dad alone.

I think Yutana had seven lawyers plus the board. And they would say things like, "You goddamn Indians. You know you’re gonna just drink the money up."

And your dad took shit like that, Bear. BEAR KETZLER: I know he did, yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: To this day, I mean, your dad was not that kind of person. I mean, for your dad to have to come home and take shit like that.

I mean, I don’t understand human beings. KAREN BREWSTER: No. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t. Yeah, you can step on somebody, but if you’re a human being, you don’t step on somebody. KAREN BREWSTER: No.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, of course, the irony is, your dad started drinking. (mechanical humming sound comes on in the background) And, of course, that’s a double hurt for me because that means those son-of-a-bitches won.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. Just the furnace just went on, I think. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, that’s the furnace. BEAR KETZLER: It’s the furnace. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Or the water pump. BEAR KETZLER: That’s the water pump. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It might be the water pump. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Not the house ain’t gonna blow up. KAREN BREWSTER: No, no. No, no. It’s just the noise on the recording is all I’m saying. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh. KAREN BREWSTER: I’m just explaining the background noise that all of a sudden -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: So anyhow.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, they -- they came down and physically threatened one of my uncles. (inaudible as he gets talked over) DELOIS BURGGRAF: It took three years. It took three years.

KAREN BREWSTER: So, I’m sorry. Bear, what -- they physically -- BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- beat up your uncles, is that what you said? BEAR KETZLER: No, they took him into the back of the -- (inaudible as he gets talked over)

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, that’s another part of the story. That’s right. He was -- my brother-in-law was elected presider of this little union.

Oh god, now I forget what sequence that was. I think that was -- that was that -- I think I do have the sequence wrong.

Ok, like -- ok. Number one, married your dad in ’55. The union -- your dad worked the dock that whole summer. And then, it was -- no.

BEAR KETZLER: It don’t matter. I mean, it’s -- KAREN BREWSTER: It doesn’t matter. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, it does in a way because, uh, ok.

KAREN BREWSTER: I can get the dates. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Well, yeah. You should talk to your dad, anyway. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I’ll talk to him. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Why don’t you talk to him? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. I hope to.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Because anyway, it is this experience. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That we went through. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And I mean, I learned so much.

KAREN BREWSTER: That’s what I’m more concerned -- more interested in hearing about the experience than the dates. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: At -- at dynamics. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: The internal dynamics of the union people. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: The outside dynamics.

You know, it’s like a ping pong. You know, pool table. You know. The -- there’s a set of balls, and there’s that "pew" (makes sounds of impact)! And the impact of the balls and the dynamic, and that ball hits that ball, and that ball.

And anyhow, this is just that Nenana become this pool table. The balls get hit, hit. Some go into the pocket and disappear. And then maybe new balls get thrown on.

But anyhow, I learned about dynamics. The internal, the external.

And if I had not had that, I could not have done land claims. I could not have done land claims if I had not had that education. And it was a three-year intense education. Three years.

KAREN BREWSTER: Three years for the, um, union effort? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, before we won. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And anyhow, it’s a long story. But anyhow, if I had not’a had that, well, needless to say, your dad had had enough.

He ended up, of course, getting employed at the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration). For him, that was like dying and going to heaven. A steady, year-round job. Not just summer job. Year-round job.

And by that time, he had four kids. And um, officially, even though he’d gone through a whole lot of education, still, seven years of school. Even though both of us oughta have some kind of, at least, associate degree in something. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. In life. DELOIS BURGGRAF: But anyhow. KAREN BREWSTER: In life experience.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Anyhow, he got that job. Ok. But, and like I say, he wanted nothing to do with land claims. Not so much because of an issue. He had already gone through enough. KAREN BREWSTER: Al had? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yes.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. He’d been tortured through that union.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: He had been already tortured. And I’m in this situation where I have four kids. I am their mother, and my job is to secure my children’s interest. And my children’s cousins.

I mean, there’s no way I can leave them behind either. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They’re just as valuable and precious.

And then you go to your neighbor’s kids, and, you know what I mean. It’s like you have a responsibility to your community, to your children, to your children’s cousins, to your family. And then your community.

And that was my job. And um, which is something I never did before. I never went against my husband.

I mean, I always kind of stayed in a little circle that he kinda kept me enclosed in. ’Cause there’s a lot of certain things he didn’t -- he just -- anyway, there was some things I did not do. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, I went ahead and did them anyway, and he knew it, because I was not going to do that. And uh, but anyway, basically, though, I kind of stayed in it, but he wanted nothing to do with that.

And uh, Kay was coming down at the invitation, because she met Al Starr at the Indian Rights Association meeting.

Al happened to be in Fairbanks at a time when the Indian Rights Association meeting was meeting, and Kay was at that meeting about -- and giving the Indian Rights meeting that information about her thesis. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: She gave a talk. And that’s when Al Starr invited her to come down to talk to Nenana.

Which like I say, it took time ’cause we had to create a forum for him to talk to -- for us to get permission to use the Native hall. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It has to stand on firm ground. You have to do procedure. So Kay came down and gave that talk.

And um, it was almost over, when a couple of guys come in, one from Minto. He -- but he’s married to, I think, a Dot Lake or Tanacross woman. Tanacross woman. Tanacross woman.

Robert Charlie. Was married to a Tanacross woman. But he’s -- he reside in Minto, but yet he married a Tanacross woman and lived with her, but yet he was coming in from Tanacross with Lawrence David.

And Lawrence David is from that region. They were coming in ’cause they were going to Minto. Probably for the holidays or something. I’m not sure why Robert would be traveling at that time, but he happened to see the lights on at the Native hall, and he came in toward the end of the talk.

And -- him and Lawrence David, and listened in, and, of course, Minto is always kinda had and been in aware and conscious of land issues, unresolved. They were always aware of it. They grew up in it.

Not that there was any activity going on, but they were aware that they had some kind of documentation of keeping their land.

And anyhow, after the talk that Kay gave, she asked well, um, you know, she wanted questions from the floor. And she heard, you know, of people losing a trapline here to the Clear base (Clear Air Force Station), and hunting grounds and, you know, all --

Anyway, she was astounded at what was going on. And she said, "Well, do you think any other villages would be interested?" And I said, "Well, maybe Minto."

And, you know, Robert Charlie was there. "Well, Robert, do you think Minto?" And he said, "Yeah. Yeah. They would be interested."

And so it was planned at that time, ’cause Robert was heading to Minto, and he -- you know, we talked it over. "When do you think Minto could come and meet?"

And, you know, we selected a date, February, somewhere in February, and we would have Minto. We'd have -- Kay would come down again for a meeting, and Kay, uh, would meet with Minto and Nenana people. Ok?

Well, that meeting happened in February, and Kay also had Mary Alice Miller come down. And also coming down was Tom Snapp, a reporter. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGRAFF: At that meeting.

BEAR KETZLER: Do you know who Mary Alice Miller is?

KAREN BREWSTER: No, I was gonna ask who Mary Alice Miller is. I know who Tom Snapp is.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Mary Alice, Judge Mary Alice Miller. BEAR KETZLER: She's the judge. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Judge Mary Alice Miller.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, there was a female judge in 1959? DELOIS BURGGRAF: A female judge named Mary Alice Miller came and sat in on the whole thing. BEAR KETZLER: She was a friend of Charlie Purvis’.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. And you said she was a friend of Charlie’s? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, I don’t know if she's a friend of Charlie’s. Kay is the one that brought her down. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, but they --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But I mean, I have no idea, hon, about that. See, it could be. Maybe he’d been before her? I don’t know. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I’ve not heard -- I've not heard her name, so that’s interesting. BEAR KETZLER: Oh, really? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: She’s a pivotal point at what she’s going to say. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, anyway. KAREN BREWSTER: We're gonna get -- We'll get there. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, when she gets there.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Let me tell the rest of the story, because, after it was all over, Minto brought their little paperwork. Handful of paperwork here, handful there, had their -- ok.

After -- and then they’re left, and Kay turns to Mary Alice and she said, "Well, Mary Alice, what do you think?" And Mary Alice says, "I think you have a case." Whoo! KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: It was like electricity through us. Absolutely electrified us. Oh my god. Oh my god. We have validity.

And so that -- that meeting is, "Well, do you think there’s other villages that would be involved?" Da-da, da-da. Well, yeah. Well, we’ll have it in March.

And that is when we sent out notices, probably 20, 30 or notices to more surrounding villages. And that is when nine villages come to the third meeting. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: In Nenana. KAREN BREWSTER: That was in Nenana?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Addressing the letters. And even, I -- I think we had to write ’em in longhand. I’m not quite sure about all of that.

KAREN BREWSTER: Some of them are in your dad’s collection at the archives (Alaska and Polar Region Collections & Archives, Elmer E. Rasmuson Library, University of Alaska Fairbanks). BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: There are copies of those types of letters. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, well, anyhow. BEAR KETZLER: (inaudible while being talked over) KAREN BREWSTER: ’Cause I’ve seen ’em.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah. I’m the one that brought -- that was from my dad’s stuff, I think. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That's was Dad’s stuff that didn’t get burned, I think. KAREN BREWSTER: No, it’s a -- it's a combination. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, it is. They need to be organized in years. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, ’cause yeah -- catalogued.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Anyway, I know the letters you’re talking about.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Anyway, the bottom line is that -- that it was the chief’s wife, Mary Demientieff, who addressed a lot of that. Wonderful -- if you see some wonderful longhand, that was Mary Demientieff’s writing. Um-hm. Anyhow.

KAREN BREWSTER: But you and -- you wrote the letters and --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I don’t think. I don’t remember writing those letters. Of inviting them to that meeting. I don’t remember writing those letters.

I’m not sure if they -- I’d hate to think that they got longhand written. They must’ve been typed. Somebody must have typed.

KAREN BREWSTER: It may have been. I think the ones I’ve seen, I think, were typed. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. I might’ve done the typing. KAREN BREWSTER: I could tell you ’cause I have my notes.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I do know Mary’s the one that sent them out. KAREN BREWSTER: She sent them, huh?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that’s when we met at Frank Alexander’s house. For that meeting.

KAREN BREWSTER: Now, was that the first meeting in 1962? BEAR KETZLER: No. KAREN BREWSTER: No, this is before that? BEAR KETZLER: Before that.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: This is in Nenana. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: A meeting. The chiefs meeting was called.

And at that meeting is the Minto -- Uh, what do you call it? BEAR KETZLER: That’s when it was decided there.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s when Minto brought up the fact of Nuch’a’lawoya is the traditional meeting site. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And that’s when you -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that is when, ok, we do Minto. KAREN BREWSTER: And that’s when the --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, we do Tanana. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: And the Tana -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: That is when we had the big gathering.

KAREN BREWSTER: The -- In June of 1962 in Tanana?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that’s when Robert Bennett, the BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) guy, came. Because the -- Kennedy had sent up a delegation to, oh god, and look at, um -- oh god, you’re going to have to ask your dad precisely what that was.

It’s -- they sent two big books out of that. And that’s, like I say, that meeting was crucial at that time. ’Cause they came to it. Kennedy had sent up Robert Bennett was the Oneida chief. Not a chief. Oneida.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, um, no, that wasn’t Robert Bennett. It was Bill Keeler? Is that who you’re talking about? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Maybe. Oh god, I -- the BI -- Bill Keeler maybe? KAREN BREWSTER: There was -- there was -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, ok. Maybe it was. Maybe it was.

KAREN BREWSTER: There was a task -- it was called the Task Force on Alaska Native Affairs. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: And -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok, so Bill Keeler. KAREN BREWSTER: Bill Keeler, he was the -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. Ok. KAREN BREWSTER: -- the Principle Chief of the Cherokee Nation. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, well, no. It was -- I don't think he was --

KAREN BREWSTER: And Hugh Wade, Secretary of State for Alaska. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And James Officer, Associate Commissioner of Indian Affairs. That’s what I have. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. KAREN BREWSTER: You know. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. KAREN BREWSTER: Don't -- I could be wrong. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. No, no, no, no, no. BEAR KETZLER: No, those --

KAREN BREWSTER: But that’s what I have for that group.

BEAR KETZLER: And you’ve gone through Ted Hetzel’s, you know, pictures? Have you ever -- KAREN BREWSTER: No, I haven’t seen those. BEAR KETZLER: Ok. ’Cause he -- KAREN BREWSTER: He was there, too. BEAR KETZLER: -- his family -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: I gotta -- BEAR KETZLER: His family gave me -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- go in there. BEAR KETZLER: -- all the photographs. He -- KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: Ted Hetzel. I think he was KAREN BREWSTER: He -- BEAR KETZLER: He's a professional photographer, and he primarily focused on Native American. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. BEAR KETZLER: Very famous.

KAREN BREWSTER: So one of -- some of those photos that we have in the archives that -- BEAR KETZLER: That were from me. KAREN BREWSTER: From you. BEAR KETZLER: That I gave to the university. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. But were those Ted’s photos, or those --? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, a lot of them were Ted’s.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. Yeah, I have his name, that he was part of the Indian Rights Association. BEAR KETZLER: Right. He was part of the Indian Rights -- The Red Man organization. KAREN BREWSTER: Which was --

BEAR KETZLER: They were -- He was part of an organization. It was a nationwide group called the Red Man.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. And that was the same as --?

BEAR KETZLER: Some say it’s a precursor of the Boy Scouts. I don’t -- I don't know, but I’ve just -- I’ve heard that rumored before, but --

KAREN BREWSTER: But was that the same as the Indian Rights Association or something different?

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, well, Indian Rights is -- is probably Association on American Indian Affairs, huh? KAREN BREWSTER: I -- I-- BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, there was a connection.

KAREN BREWSTER: It’s a -- it's a national organization. There was the Association of American Indian Affairs? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Which was LaVerne Madigan, and -- BEAR KETZLER: LaVerne at that time. KAREN BREWSTER: And Henry Forbes. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, she came up.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then I have this Indian Rights Association. BEAR KETZLER: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: With Ted’s name. BEAR KETZLER: Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then, there’s the Alaska Native Rights Association. BEAR KETZLER: Ok, that was -- involved in -- KAREN BREWSTER: Which was Kay and Charlie. BEAR KETZLER: That’s right, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And Grant Newman and Sandy Jensen. BEAR KETZLER: Sandy Jensen. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s what I have. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, that’s right.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, so. But this -- Uh, well, when your mom comes back, this third meeting in Nenana with the nine villages. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: What year that was. She said it was in March, but --

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. It was March-April, ’60 -- KAREN BREWSTER: Was it ’61? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, probably in ’61 or they --

KAREN BREWSTER: Maybe your dad remembers. ’Cause I know that the big chiefs conference in Tanana was in ’62. BEAR KETZLER: It was in June of ’62.

KAREN BREWSTER: ’62. And so, when this March meeting, was it the same year, or was it --? As I say, maybe my -- BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. She should be able to remember that. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: That one, you know, I was six at the time. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, that’s why -- You know, I know you were -- BEAR KETZLER: Six. KAREN BREWSTER: You were around, but you were a kid. BEAR KETZLER: Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: So how much you would remember about it. Um, but, you know, certainly kids remember way more than we realize, I think.

You absorbed things, probably. You don’t even realize it. Um. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah.

BEAR KETZLER: So that meeting in Nenana, wha -- KAREN BREWSTER: That -- BEAR KETZLER: How early was that? Was it ’61 or '62? KAREN BREWSTER: That March-April meeting.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, hon, it's all that same year. BEAR KETZLER: It was a year. Ok, so it was in ’62, then. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So that March meeting was March of ’62? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, it’s before Tanana. KAREN BREWSTER: And then Tanana was in June of ’62. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: It was the same year. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Um-hm. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, it was pretty -- KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, god, I don’t know how we did all that.

KAREN BREWSTER: I don’t -- that’s, yeah, how did you do all that? DELOIS BURGGRAF: And okay, this is again, we gotta back up, because like I say, the crucial woman -- of course, there's Kay. But Sandy Jensen came on board. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And did so much also. And these are two widow women.

Again, people who had -- I mean, Kay was in desperate states. I mean, she had a teenage son. She’s widowed. She had to put herself through school, and I don’t know how she afforded. Must’ve been a student loan or something. I don’t know. She -- in order to get a job as a teacher. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, professor of English, to support herself. And she’s an orphan. She had been raised in an orphanage. KAREN BREWSTER: Wow.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Sandy Jensen was a widow who, of course, had homesteaded up here, which is on the corner of where the university owns it now. They acquired it. I think it’s the university.

During the pipeline years, they bought out her homestead and her daughter’s. There was -- they filed next to each other. Dittmann was the daughter’s name, Nancy Dittmann, I think, and Sandy Jensen. And --

KAREN BREWSTER: So what was Sandy’s role, when getting involved with you guys?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Maybe I’m jumping ahead. She might not’ve been involved prior. But I know she --

KAREN BREWSTER: But when she got involved, what did she do?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, mostly in helping -- in -- in the coordinating of communicating from Nenana to the Fairbanks people. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: She’s coordinated and kept whatever. And then, Kay is the one, god now, we gotta get back up, ok. No, we don’t. We can move forward.

Because, around that time, ok, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now we’re talking about the rest of Alaska a little bit, hon. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Was crucial time.

Everything -- You know, you got this vast land, and this is happening in this little bubble down here, which is Nenana, Minto. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Fairbanks and, you know. BEAR KETZLER: And Tanana. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And then of course it -- KAREN BREWSTER: Tanana. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- goes to Tanana and gets started.

BEAR KETZLER: And down to Holy Cross. And up to Eagle (unclear because of being talked over)

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so anyhow, then at the time, our great white leaders is deciding, it was a brilliant idea. William Wood, Dr. William Wood. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: To make a bomb. A --

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, Project Chariot. DELOIS BURGGRAF: The -- yeah, exactly. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: A harbor. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: In Point Hope. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And the people at Point Hope are mortified. And way over here in New York is Howard Rock. BEAR KETZLER: The artisan.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he is an artist that has been discovered by the Association of American Indian Affairs. BEAR KETZLER: LaVerne Madigan. KAREN BREWSTER: LaVerne Madigan.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And uh, I don’t know exactly why they would pull him in, but anyway, he was an artist, I guess you’d say, in residence out there.

And so the people at Point Hope don’t know what to do, who to go to. They contacted Howard and informed him what’s going on, what can be done.

And Howard, thank God, was out there in the New York headquarters office. Little office. I mean, New York City’s got gazillion offices.

And he’s this artist-in-residence. He’s -- I think, working on his big picture of a polar bear at that time. He made a big picture.

Anyhow. And he informs LaVerne of this going on. And, of course, she investigates, you know. And, of course, our transformation of information, you know, before Facebook and all this stuff. I don’t know how and what kind of avenues she used to verify what the heck the US is thinking about.

And William Wood and all of these, whoever, the great thinkers, which you’d have to look at the Firecracker (Boys) book. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: To find out who were the brains behind this.

And anyhow, she found out, you know, there was some validity to this, and she and Howard flew up here. Just prior to our Tanana Chiefs meeting. It was after the March meeting.

Howard and LaVerne and Guy Okakok and Kay. Now LaVerne was in the hospital, ’cause she broke her arm. I remember going to see her. On that trip somehow she broke her arm.

And I remember Kay and Guy Okakok and Howard Rock come into our cabin. And I remember Kay whispered to me, "Maybe we can get some financial help from an outfit called the Association of American Indian Affairs." And "Oh, wow." ’Cause we had no money. Nobody had money. Nobody in those days had money.

I don’t even know how we provi -- did what we did, even in those days. But anyhow.

And then before land claims -- I mean before the meeting, we learned that association, I think if I remember right, contributed 800 dollars toward airfare or something. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: To bring people to Tanana? BEAR KETZLER: To Tanana, yeah. There was Wein (Airlines) charter. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And they also printed up the fliers.

BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. ’Cause I remember Senator Stevens telling me that -- Well, Charlie reminded me to ask Senator Stevens. But Senator Stevens donated some money for the airplane charter himself. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

BEAR KETZLER: He was a local attorney. KAREN BREWSTER: And did -- Oh, he was still a -- he wasn’t senator yet? BEAR KETZLER: Oh, no. KAREN BREWSTER: No, no, no. BEAR KETZLER: Way before. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, he's --

KAREN BREWSTER: 'Cause I was going to say, did he come to the -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, he was -- he was just a little -- BEAR KETZLER: No. DELOIS BURGGRAF: He was an attorney up here. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. No, he didn’t come to the meeting, no. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And him and Charlie, there’s a long story called the horse story that goes -- predates any of this, too. Which is a whole ’nother story.

But um -- and the reason I’m bringing it up, ’cause my son, Owen, before, you know, Senator Stevens got real old or whatever, but it was probably past the '90’s. It was past the '90’s.

My brother was at an event at Alaskaland that, you know, he -- Senator Stevens would have a hotdog -- a fundraiser type thing. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Type thing. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And so, my brother went up and introduced himself that he’s Denali Purvis, and Charlie Purvis’ son.

And Senator Stevens said he’ll never forget Charlie Purvis, and that’s because of the horse story, which is a whole ’nother story. But anyway. KAREN BREWSTER: That was the small world of --

BEAR KETZLER: Do you have copies of the Tanana Chiefs minutes? KAREN BREWSTER: Um. BEAR KETZLER: Of ’62, maybe? KAREN BREWSTER: Uh, in the -- in the collection, there’s certainly --

BEAR KETZLER: ’Cause I’ve given ’em to the university, but --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, there’s certainly a lot of information, um, related to that meeting. I can’t tell you if there’s the exact -- There’s the pro --

BEAR KETZLER: And I also have minutes of the ’63 meeting, as well.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, there’s, um, there’s the program. And the -- the ’63 meeting is, how do you say that -- Dena nena ha --? BEAR KETZLER: Dena’ Nena’ Henash. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Dena’ Nena’ Henash. KAREN BREWSTER: Dena’ Nena’ Henash.

There’s information about that, as well. So yeah, I -- I have to look through my notes afterwards and see if -- what we have copies of and what we -- I mean, it’s a great collection. BEAR KETZLER: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: Of showing about that time period.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. ’Cause I have for ten years, probably, about every Tundra Times that’s been published, too. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. BEAR KETZLER: Which I don’t think the university’s got.

KAREN BREWSTER: No, the Tundra Times collection is up in Utqiaġvik. BEAR KETZLER: Um-hm. KAREN BREWSTER: And it’s on a website. BEAR KETZLER: Oh, it is. KAREN BREWSTER: And it’s searchable, at least to some extent. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: So that’s been well catalogued, and -- and -- BEAR KETZLER: Good. Good. KAREN BREWSTER: And protected.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, 'cause a lot of that was -- You know, during the flood of ’67, a lot of that News-Miner -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: And -- and Tom Snapp stuff disappeared. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. So I don’t know if it’s a complete collection, but it is -- And then sometimes --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, Colleen -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. I know Colleen Redman. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, and that’s -- that’s another project. So um, and there’s also in archival collections, often, you know, people like you. You have a copy of a newspaper article, and it’s in the folder. And so -- BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: There’s also sometimes those carry forth, as well. BEAR KETZLER: Right. Right. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I’m --

BEAR KETZLER: I think it was the ’63 meeting that, you know, Tanana Chiefs, you know, through, you know, their resolution process, their director process, said -- you know, mom, decided it was time to start the statewide organization. DELOIS BURGGRAF: The -- start what? BEAR KETZLER: A statewide organization. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh.

KAREN BREWSTER: Or at least a statewide -- BEAR KETZLER: The creation of -- KAREN BREWSTER: -- movement? BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Well, you know -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well -- BEAR KETZLER: -- the creation of AFN (Alaska Federation of Natives).

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, AFN didn’t officially -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: No. KAREN BREWSTER: -- become, until ’66. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No, no. they didn’t -- BEAR KETZLER: No, 'til many years later. DELOIS BURGGRAF: They didn’t have that word, AFN, then and -- KAREN BREWSTER: No, but that they -- BEAR KETZLER: No, no. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: Trying to go beyond -- BEAR KETZLER: Right, right. KAREN BREWSTER: -- the local issues. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They were reaching out. Well, even, oh. I think it was definitely by the second chiefs meeting, I remember sending out -- and him responding even to, uh, Pribilofs. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Gromonoff was his last name (she says Gromonoff, but his name is Father Ishmail Gromoff.) I can’t remember his first name, but somehow I got the address of Gromonoff, inviting him to the meeting.

And he sent a letter back that he’d love to come, but his bishop -- he was a priest. Gromonoff was a priest. And the bishop wouldn’t let him.

And the bishop, of course, was a Russian Orthodox. He’s a Russian man. A bishop in Russia.

And, of course, at that time, the Russian Orthodox was trying to survive under a communist system. And I think they didn’t want to ruffle any feathers. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I do -- I do see here in the collection, my notes about. There was a petition signed in the ’63, saying -- requesting a freeze of state land selections. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: That came out of the ’62 chiefs meeting. So that’s what you’re saying that that resolution. It was some kind of a petition that it looks like they -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: To the Secretary of Interior.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, but that they circulated amongst villages to ask them to sign it. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, yeah. BEAR KETZLER: Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: ’Cause there’s a copy of a -- oh no, this is another thing. The -- there was sent out a form to the village councils to have them select delegates to come to the Athabascan Conference. And I don’t know, that would’ve been in ’63?

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, also now, we sent letters out to have them file blanket claims. That was crucial. And that data came from LaVerne Madigan. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: How to make and file. Essential thing we had to do was file blanket claims. And letting the state know, asserting, this land is ours. You can have what we don’t file. You know.

And I know the BLM guy who was at BLM (Bureau of Land Management), I can’t think of his name now, but Roger could probably help me with it. ’Cause he went to Cornell. He was a Cornellian

But, he said, that at BLM, they were surprised at the blanket claims, at how they -- they -- how well defined they knew their own borders, and they very seldom crossed over. Or if one crossed over, they yielded to the other one. There was no conflict.

KAREN BREWSTER: So the different villages filed the blanket claims? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Everybody had to file a blanket claim. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm. I didn’t know that. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Everybody had to file a blanket claim. KAREN BREWSTER: That said, this is our -- BEAR KETZLER: This is our claims. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that is LaVerne Madigan that came out of -- Yes, yes, we had to send letters out to get the blanket claims.

KAREN BREWSTER: Maybe that’s what those petitions were? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah. It could be.

KAREN BREWSTER: So that was LaVerne’s idea? Or suggestion? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, it’s what had to be done. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Actually, it got stolen from us. That letter got stolen from Howard Rock’s office. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And we know who did it, but, you know, the man’s dead and can’t talk for himself. And he gave it to the News-Miner.

And the News-Miner, of course, at the -- this is after the first land claims meeting. Of course, the News-Miner called us communist. And in those days, that’s a very serious -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Very serious.

BEAR KETZLER: You haven’t gone to the Daily News-Miner stuff yet? You'll have to read what they were saying. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, no, I’m not going to that level of detail. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. But anyhow, like I say. BEAR KETZLER: (inaudible) KAREN BREWSTER: I’m sure.

But, I mean, newspaper research is an amazing resource. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: For the times.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But, in the meanwhile, um, they -- this here, like I say, we’d been already called communists. And, anyway, there’s a lot there that they have -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And anyway, yeah. This letter got stolen, brought to the News-Miner, and they published it in their editorial page as a, "this is what they’re sending out to the villages."

I mean, they couldn’t have done better publicity. I mean, hon, it is one of the funniest -- I mean, this is a "Warning, warning, this is what they’re sending to the villages." And here it was free publicity for me.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, that makes me want to go find that. So that would’ve been ’63, maybe? ’62, 63? BEAR KETZLER: A little later. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I’m not sure, ’62, '63. In that era, we had to file land claims. BEAR KETZLER: I’d say ’64. KAREN BREWSTER: So why -- why -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Blanket claims, I mean.

KAREN BREWSTER: Why did you need to do blanket claims? Why use that --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: That’s to identify what -- here is the line. You can have what we don’t claim. This is our land.

This is the declaration, this is our land, even though we’re not recognized by Cong -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: In fact, see, we were not even recognized. Oh god, let’s see. Ok.

When Kay sent the letter to the Secretary of Interior, informing them that there’s unresolved aboriginal land claims up here, of course their response is, you know, that court of claims thing that had to be submitted by ’51.

And other -- after that, no aboriginal claims would be honored or recognized. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Ok.

And then, number one and number two is that they wouldn’t do one of two things. They would not do reservation system, because they were just pockets of poverty. And they would not do individual settlements. You know, like cash settlements. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, individual. Because then they are accused of destroying the tribe.

And Charlie happened to be at that meeting, and he said, "Well, call it corporation. Do a corporation. It’s the same thing as a tribe."

And that grabbed people. The young Natives did not want to be a chief. They wanted to be presidents. And also -- they also were aware of tribal law.

And hon, do you understand tribal law? KAREN BREWSTER: No. Does anybody understand tribal law? BEAR KETZLER: (inaudible as he’s talked over) DELOIS BURGGRAF: Let me explain. KAREN BREWSTER: It's so complicated.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Let me explain. The royal head of Britain. That’s tribal law. The king and the queen. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. DELOIS BURGGRAF: The House of Saud. BEAR KETZLER: It’s a tribe. DELOIS BURGRAFF: Total tribal law. They own everything. They own everything.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: They own the whole of Saudi Arabia. They own your house, because they provided that house.

If someone does something wrong, yes, there must be punishment. But they won’t die. You will. Someone will have to die, but it don’t have to be the one, if it is the royal house that ordered the irregularity.

And in Britain, had modified their abor -- their tribal law by Rudymede (referring to the Magna Carta signed by King John in 1215 at Runnymede?). When those nobles met and said, you’re going to share the power. That was a historic occasion.

'Cause then it spread, not only from the royal house to the nobles, and then later on, of course, they cut off the kings’ heads. And then now they have the House of Commons.

And these became -- course I gotta back up way a little more, because common law originated Alexander the Great. If it was not for him, we would -- that is the difference between Western law and Eastern law. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: If Japan won, they’d have your house and your head or your whatever. If Japan won the war.

Western world won. Japan has their house. They have their government. They have their land. It’s a whole different concept. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And we got that from the Persians. KAREN BREWSTER: Yes.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: When Alexander the Great went in there and conquered Persia, they conquered Alexander the Great. KAREN BREWSTER: Yep.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that is so powerful. And these are things that Americans don’t understand. Laws that were made hundreds of years ago. Policy made hundreds of years ago are in play. They’re the rules today. KAREN BREWSTER: Yes, oh definitely.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But they're are not being followed in today’s world. It’s so -- it’s swept under the rug or whatever.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and that’s the thing is getting people to go against those laws, which is what land claims did. DELOIS BURGGRAF: No. You’re with them laws. They -- BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. That was the basis.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: If it was not for them, we would not have a leg to stand on. KAREN BREWSTER: Um-hm. Oh, I see. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That is the law. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: It is --

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. I see what you mean. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Um, I just want to ask one question, follow up. You said they would not do reservations and not do individual cash settlements. Who is they --? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Capital. Per capital. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: The US government.

KAREN BREWSTER: The US -- that was the government’s position? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: That was the Interior, Secretary of Interior. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: Ok. I wanted to make sure that was their position, not the Native communities’ position. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. No, yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Ok.

BEAR KETZLER: And also, you know, the meeting with Wickersham, as well, was -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: You know, it was still very memorized in the Native community. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: That they said, no, no we don’t want -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: -- reservations. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: Alfred Starr, when he was in the Lower 48, traveling around, doing his own investigation of Native American law, and he went to a number of what he described, hell-holes. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: They were just -- He said, no way do we want reservations. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: To be in Alaska. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: But he did want the land.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. But it -- so it’s a way -- it was a way -- land claims was a way to get the land without doing reservations. What other options were there? BEAR KETZLER: Right. Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: And that’s what you guys were working on.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Now, would it be secured? What would be the mechanism to -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Hm-hmm.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so, um, you’ve been talking for a long time, and you may be tired. And whether we stop and I come back another day, and we keep going? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Well, it’s --

BEAR KETZLER: I mean, I have to -- I -- I volunteer on -- KAREN BREWSTER: Bear has to go. BEAR KETZLER: -- Tuesdays with Salv -- You know, with the Salvation Army. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. Uh-huh. Well, it’s a good time to take -- BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, it’s a good time.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I have no idea what time. I don’t have a clock up here. BEAR KETZLER: It’s 1:30. KAREN BREWSTER: It’s 1:30. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, is it? BEAR KETZLER: Oh yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: So, yeah. DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh, my god. KAREN BREWSTER: Um.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Oh god, hon, you’ve gotta go. BEAR KETZLER: So, it'll be a, you know -- And she can -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, why don’t we fold it up? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, and then I’ll -- can come back.

BEAR KETZLER: There's a lot of other points that, you know, I -- that she shoulda made on the way. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: We can discuss, and I can (inaudible) whatever --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I was trying not to interrupt too much. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Because what you say is all wonderful context and background and is very important. But yeah, I have follow-up questions. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: And -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, well, like I say --

KAREN BREWSTER: And you -- you kept saying, "Oh, you’re jumping ahead." Well, you know --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah, well, like I say, we got there a step at a time. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And we got this one was over here and found something and then had to splice it in. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s how history works. DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s how life works.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, it was -- and like I say, working under -- there was no road from Nenana to Fairbanks. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And that’s why, you know, you have to go -- give the back story before --

DELOIS BURGGRAF: You know, for a lot of this. My dad and Al Starr used to walk on the railroad and meet each other halfway. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: I mean, this was work, hon. I mean, it -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So I agree, that there’s all those details to kind of backtrack through.

BEAR KETZLER: Right. You know, then you can -- You know, I mean, I -- you’re -- you're -- you're focusing on kind of the beginnings of it, right? DELOIS BURGGRAF: Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Right. Well, that’s kind of what she wanted to know. KAREN BREWSTER: Because --

BEAR KETZLER: We know -- we know the stories, you know, pretty much right up until the -- it was signed in ’71. KAREN BREWSTER: No, I know. I know. But --

BEAR KETZLER: And there’s, you know, like Don Wright. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: You know. I don’t know, have you gotten -- ever gotten the story that he knew Richard Nixon back -- from back in the early '60’s. KAREN BREWSTER: Um, I haven’t looked into that.

BEAR KETZLER: Yeah. You know, I mean, it came down to when Don was lobbying, he was head of AFN at the time. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: And he was back in Washington.

He brought his little business card of Senator Nixon. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. BEAR KETZLER: And Nixon wrote a note, "Come visit me any time you’re in Washington." So he went to the White House, and --

And, you know, his daughter’s got it well documented. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. BEAR KETZLER: Darlene. But uh, so he gave it to the security guard, him and another person that was with Don.

And -- and to his friend’s surprise, the security guard came out two minutes later and said, "The president will see you."

So he went back and visited Nixon, and Nixon said, "Don, you get the legislation. Get a bill in front of me. I’m going to sign it." KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

BEAR KETZLER: I support the American Indian -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, well and -- BEAR KETZLER: -- and Alaska Natives, so -- KAREN BREWSTER: And Nixon, yeah, he was big on Indian -- he had a whole Indian policy. BEAR KETZLER: Yeah, he did have a very -- yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: And he gave this great speech. Yeah. BEAR KETZLER: And a history with -- if you ever read his book. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. So he was definitely --

BEAR KETZLER: His coach was an American -- Native American. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. That’s right. And -- and so he was definitely supportive. So yeah, I mean, the ANCSA story has been -- BEAR KETZLER: So many pieces.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And, of course, that’s the Quaker connection. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. Well, that’s another thing to ask you about.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: And that Kay is a Quaker. BEAR KETZLER: And that’s -- KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So I’m going to turn this off.

BEAR KETZLER: So when Charlie Purvis traveled all over the United States -- DELOIS BURGGRAF: And Charlie Purvis -- BEAR KETZLER: -- to Quaker meetings. DELOIS BURGGRAF: -- is a Quaker. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, ok. BEAR KETZLER: And got letters from them.

DELOIS BURGGRAF: Not a Quaker. I mean, see Charlie is a Universalist. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. DELOIS BURGGRAF: And he could be a Quaker. I mean, he -- KAREN BREWSTER: You see, I had this whole list of questions. BEAR KETZLER: Ok. KAREN BREWSTER: Exactly about those kinds of things. Let me turn this off.