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Gloria McNutt, Part 1

Gloria McNutt was interviewed on January 23, 2015 by Karen Brewster and Rachel Mason at her home in Anchorage, Alaska. Gloria's daughter, Terry Stone, assisted with the interview and added her own memories to the discussion. Terry's husband, Roger, was also present during parts of the interview. In this first part of a two part interview, Gloria talks about living in Texas and moving to Alaska, living on a homestead in Sterling, Alaska and working for the post office there. Then, she mostly she talks about her husband's guiding business based out of Chisana and Horsfeld in the Wrangell St. Elias Mountains. She talks about living at Chisana, helping with the groceries and food, running a bed and breakfast, changes in the wildlife populations, and the relationship between guides and the National Park Service. Gloria also looks at old photographs of their homestead at Chisana and talks about the various buildings and what life was like there.

Digital Asset Information

Archive #: Oral History 2013-14-15_PT.1

Project: Wrangell-St.Elias National Park
Date of Interview: Jan 23, 2015
Narrator(s): Gloria McNutt, Terry Stone
Interviewer(s): Karen Brewster, Rachel Mason
Transcriber: Sue Beck
People Present: Terry Stone, Roger Stone
Location of Interview:
Location of Topic:
Funding Partners:
National Park Service
Alternate Transcripts
There is no alternate transcript for this interview.
There is no slideshow for this person.

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Personal background

Living and working in Texas

Meeting her husband, Raymon, and coming to Alaska

Homesteading in Sterling, Alaska

Raymon guiding on the Kenai Peninsula

Living and working in Anchorage

Life on the homestead and running the post office

Having children, and getting to the hospital in Anchorage and Seward

Getting started with guiding out of Chisana

Raymon's guided hunting trips, doing the paperwork, and organizing groceries

Working as camp cook in summertime, and types of food served

Hiring assistant guides

Hunting clients and advertising the guiding business

Managing the sheep population

Competition with other guides, and permit system

Use of and caring for the horses

Basing operations out of Chisana and Horsfeld

Size of groups, and salvaging, using, and preserving the meat

Living in Chisana full-time

Flying and becoming a pilot

Effect of the national park on their guiding business

Changes in the sheep population

Years of high rabbit populations

Describing Chisana and Horsfeld, and looking at photographs of them

Running a bed-and-breakfast in Chisana

Relationship with the National Park Service

Talking about Horsfeld, its buildings, and its use in the guiding business

Her daughter, Terry, going hunting with her father

Life in Horsfeld and Chisana, and joy of living there

Bear trouble

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RACHEL MASON: Hello. It’s January 23, 2015, and we’re here at the home of Gloria McNutt. My name’s Rachel Mason, and Karen Brewster is also conducting the interview. And present also are Gloria’s daughter, Terry Stone, and her husband, Roger.

So the first question that I wanted to ask is where were you born?

GLORIA McNUTT: San Antonio, Texas.

RACHEL MASON: Alright. And can you tell us how you came to Alaska?

GLORIA McNUTT: Well, my husband came down to get a airline certificate and I met him, and he came back down and we married, and then I followed him to Alaska.

RACHEL MASON: How did you meet your husband?

GLORIA McNUTT: Ah. Hm. I have to think about that.

KAREN BREWSTER: What was your husband’s name again?

GLORIA McNUTT: Raymon. R-A-Y-M-O-N. No ‘D.’

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, okay. RACHEL MASON: And McNutt was his last name? GLORIA McNUTT: Mm-hm.

RACHEL MASON: Alright. Was he from San Antonio, also? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. Well, close by. Stockdale, which is about thirty miles outside of San Antonio. RACHEL MASON: Uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: And you had told us before -- when we were off tape -- you’re eighty-eight? Correct?

GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. Am I eighty-eight now or will be? TERRY STONE: Eighty-eight. GLORIA McNUTT: I’m eighty-eight now. KAREN BREWSTER: So in July you’ll be -- GLORIA McNUTT: Eighty-nine. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. RACHEL MASON: Okay.

KAREN BREWSTER: Can you tell us a little bit about your growing up in Texas? You had said you were adopted.

GLORIA McNUTT: Well, that’s all. I mean not --

TERRY STONE: And you worked for the airlines or some --

GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yeah. After -- after I got outa school I worked for two different airlines. Slick Airways. And then they moved out to Burbank, California. So then I went to work for Sart (phonetic?), the one that just stayed there.

RACHEL MASON: What did you do for the airline?

GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, office work.

RACHEL MASON: Uh-huh. And were you are already married then when you -- when you started working for the airlines?

GLORIA McNUTT: Hm. I’ve got to stop and think. TERRY STONE: Well, you got married in 1952. To dad. GLORIA McNUTT: Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so were you working at the airline when you met Raymon?

GLORIA McNUTT: I must’ve been. I can’t remember when I first met him.

RACHEL MASON: Well, how did -- how did he come to Alaska? What made him come up to Alaska?

GLORIA McNUTT: Well, he was in Texas there with his brother and uncle, and they went out to California. And his dad was out there, and they all came to Alaska for a change of scenery. RACHEL MASON: I see. GLORIA McNUTT: To get away from the women in their life, I think.

RACHEL MASON: Really! And then -- and what did they do once they got here?

GLORIA McNUTT: Well, his dad wound up being -- worked -- they all worked at the fire department to start with.

RACHEL MASON: Oh? Here in Anchorage?

GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh! Right down on Fourth Avenue there. That’s where it was. And his dad -- dad wound up to be assistant chief, and he and his brother just were -- oh, kinda like roustabouts.

And then two uncles stayed with it. RACHEL MASON: I see. GLORIA McNUTT: So they had a lot of McNutts in that family. In the fire department. KAREN BREWSTER: In that fire department.

RACHEL MASON: Right. And how did he get started guiding?

GLORIA McNUTT: Hm! I’ll have to think about that. Hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, when you first came to Alaska, what year was that? GLORIA McNUTT: 1952. KAREN BREWSTER: Nineteen fifty-two. And did you come to Anchorage, or what did you do? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes, uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: You moved Anchorage?

GLORIA McNUTT: Well, yes. Uh-huh. I flew to Anchorage. And my husband had already started our homestead on the Kenai Peninsula. So he came up to Anchorage and met me there at his folks’ place -- his pop and mutti’s place.

And then we -- I can’t remember if we flew back down or drove back down the Kenai Peninsula -- to the peninsula. TERRY STONE: There was no road. KAREN BREWSTER: There was no road, yet. GLORIA McNUTT: So we had to fly, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: The road didn't -- it only went to Seward, probably. RACHEL MASON: Where was your --

GLORIA McNUTT: And Kenai. Yeah, we got our mail from Kenai. I remember I was postmaster there later. We had to get our mail from Kenai. TERRY STONE: It was Sterling.

RACHEL MASON: It was in Sterling? TERRY STONE: Sterling not Kenai. RACHEL MASON: Oh.

GLORIA McNUTT: Sterling. It was called Naptowne at first. KAREN BREWSTER: Naptowne?

GLORIA McNUTT: N-A-P. The people who started it -- it was spread out about ten miles along the road there, highway -- were from Indianapolis, Indiana. And so they named it Naptowne.

And then when -- where the Moose River flows into the Kenai (River), the people who lived there, Laura Peterson, she got mad at the other ones, so she decided to change the name of the town. So has a lot of history of turmoil.

RACHEL MASON: Yeah! Well, so how did you like it as a new bride coming to the homestead?

GLORIA McNUTT: Well, I didn’t like it at first, of course. It was so different. But I put up with it, so --

TERRY STONE: She didn’t like it for five years, she said. RACHEL MASON: Oh yeah? KAREN BREWSTER: Five years. RACHEL MASON: Five years?

KAREN BREWSTER: It was a hard first five years? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm.

TERRY STONE: And that he got her a gun for her anniversary, her first anniversary. GLORIA McNUTT: Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: So he gave you a gun for his first --?

GLORIA McNUTT: A .22 for my first anniversary.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, how romantic!

GLORIA McNUTT: I thought so, ’cause I needed it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah? What did you use it for?

GLORIA McNUTT: Well, just in case. You never know. You know, it was not overly populated at that time, and you never knew when something or somebody would come by that you didn’t want to be there.

RACHEL MASON: Right. Did you do a lot of hunting?

GLORIA McNUTT: I didn’t. My husband did. RACHEL MASON: Yeah. And did he hunt while you were in Sterling? Did he hunt for your food? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh yes! He was a guide. RACHEL MASON: Oh! Already? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. Uh-huh.

RACHEL MASON: And where was he guiding at that time? GLORIA McNUTT: Let’s see. When we married --

TERRY STONE: I think it was taking moose hunts out to different places.

GLORIA McNUTT: Right. I guess just there on the Kenai Peninsula to start with. He and Harold Anderson were in partners.

The place is called Bing Brown -- is now. Probably out of business now. And they both worked for Bing Brown out there. And they took fishermen up the Kenai River. And -- and hunting.

RACHEL MASON: Hm-mm. So they were fishing guides, too? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes! Oh my, yes!

KAREN BREWSTER: Now was Harold Anderson, was he at Skilak Lake? GLORIA McNUTT: No. KAREN BREWSTER: No. Different Anderson. ’Cause there was a Val Anderson. His dad was a guide. But it’s a different Anderson, I guess.

GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. RACHEL MASON: Yeah. How did they take the clients? Did they go on horseback or did they go on -- ?

GLORIA McNUTT: A boat. RACHEL MASON: On a boat? Oh. GLORIA McNUTT: They didn’t have horses.

RACHEL MASON: I see. And do you remember where the clients came from? Were they from Anchorage or from just all over?

GLORIA McNUTT: I imagine they were from out of state. I don’t remember. I wasn’t down there for too long.

And then I got disgusted, and I decided to come to Anchorage to get a job and support myself. And wasn’t long before he followed me.

RACHEL MASON: I see. What kind of job did you get?

GLORIA McNUTT: I worked for Alaska Crippled Children. Down -- down the hill from Fourth Avenue.

RACHEL MASON: I see. So that was in the -- probably the late '50s? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm.

TERRY STONE: No, it couldn’t have been. Because I was born in ‘55 and we were in Sterling. We homesteaded twice in Sterling. So, that might’ve been before. I don’t know.

GLORIA McNUTT: It was probably the first year I got here.

TERRY STONE: It must’ve been right after you got here. GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. RACHEL MASON: Oh.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you got here and you didn’t like the homestead, so you came back to Anchorage for a while?

GLORIA McNUTT: No, I liked the homestead, but I had to come back, go to work.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, okay. To support the homestead?

GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. ‘Cause he was gone off flying all -- I mean, hunting all the time. Polar bear hunting first. RACHEL MASON: Oh gee! KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, really? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh yeah!

RACHEL MASON: Where’d he do that? GLORIA McNUTT: Out of Kotzebue. RACHEL MASON: Oh, no kidding?

KAREN BREWSTER: So he guided out there, too?

GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. Right. He guided all over the state, except Southeast.

KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. Wow. So, yeah, being all alone on the homestead in Kenai -- GLORIA McNUTT: Sterling.

KAREN BREWSTER: Sterling, excuse me. What was that like?

GLORIA McNUTT: Well, we -- I had neighbors. They would walk by and check. And if I needed anything, I could walk down and talk to ‘em and so --

TERRY STONE: Plus you started at the post office. What year was that you were postmaster? That was real early.

GLORIA McNUTT: Right. The lady who had the post office, Laura Peterson, there at the -- they bothered her too much. People would come by all hours of the day and night.

And so she wanted to give it up. And I says, “Well I’ll take it.” So she just gave it to me. That was back in territory days. So you could do that.

And then my husband, he had -- I can’t remember. It was -- just took a week to build a little log cabin that was the post office.

KAREN BREWSTER: On your property?

GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. Right -- not too far from the front door. I would run out. And we had a buzzer system.

And when somebody wanted me, they’d drive up and I'd wait and see. Sometimes I’d be baking cookies and if I didn’t get ‘em out of the oven fast enough because I had go to the post office. And I burned a few, but not too many.

RACHEL MASON: Oh gee! Well, your first child was born in Sterling? TERRY STONE: Yes. GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm.

RACHEL MASON: And where did you go to have the baby? Did you have the baby --


GLORIA McNUTT: Excuse me, out of Seward.

TERRY STONE: No, he was born in Anchorage.

GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, that’s right. He was born in Anchorage and you were born in Seward.

TERRY STONE: Only because you couldn’t make it to Anchorage. RACHEL MASON: Oh, really?

GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. TERRY STONE: You might want to tell them the story.

RACHEL MASON: Yeah, I’d love to hear the story.

KAREN BREWSTER: Why don't you tell us that -- So your first child was born in fifty -- ? TERRY STONE: Three. GLORIA McNUTT: '53. Uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. And so tell us the story of -- so he was born in Anchorage?

GLORIA McNUTT: Right. In the hospital. Well, the hospital’s moved now. It used to be down along the --

I can take you to it, but I can’t think of the name right now.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay, and so then your second child, that’s Terry?

GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. Was born in Seward.


KAREN BREWSTER: So tell us -- you said you had to be in Seward because you couldn’t get to Anchorage? GLORIA McNUTT: Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: What happened?

GLORIA McNUTT: Well, my husband was going to fly us up, and the weather was really bad. So --

TERRY STONE: It was in October. RACHEL MASON: Oh gee. GLORIA McNUTT: In October. TERRY STONE: Big snowstorm.

GLORIA McNUTT: So he goes over to the neighbors. We -- we just had an old pickup that had a bad back on it.

And so he goes up to the neighbor and says, you know, can you get her to the hospital? So he drove us to -- well, we got to the Y coming from the Kenai Peninsula --

TERRY STONE: Well, before that a truck had to push you up the Rockcamp Hill.

KAREN BREWSTER: You had to get pushed up the hill?

GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. It was icy. And we get to the Y and finally the driver turns around and asks me which way to go. To Anchorage or to Seward. And I said, “The closest hospital.”

RACHEL MASON: And -- and what about your little boy? Was somebody taking care of him?

GLORIA McNUTT: Yes, my neighbor, Ruby Bradford. They had a little boy, too.

RACHEL MASON: Oh good. KAREN BREWSTER: And so did you make it to the hospital in time?

GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. Let’s see, how many minutes?

TERRY STONE: Twenty-two minutes.

KAREN BREWSTER: Two minutes. Two minutes to spare? GLORIA McNUTT: No, not too many.

TERRY STONE: Twenty-two. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, twenty-two.

GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. I remember getting out of the car and I had undone my -- TERRY STONE: Skirt

GLORIA McNUTT: My skirt, and so it fell down and I just kept going. RACHEL MASON: Oh, no!

GLORIA McNUTT: And so the -- the driver got out and picked it up and followed me. RACHEL MASON: He followed you? That's great.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, good thing you made it in time. GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. Thank goodness.

RACHEL MASON: Did you have any more children after that?

GLORIA McNUTT: No, just the two. A boy and a girl was all.

RACHEL MASON: Alright. When did you move to the Chisana area?

GLORIA McNUTT: Mm. Let’s see when --

TERRY STONE: I think it was around ’89, I think, when you retired from the post office. RACHEL MASON: Oh, okay.

GLORIA McNUTT: Yeah, after I gave up the post office.

RACHEL MASON: I see. So you stayed on the Kenai while your husband was guiding? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. Uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so 1980 -- you ran the post office at Sterling until 1989? TERRY STONE: Yeah. GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. TERRY STONE: She was postmaster.

KAREN BREWSTER: Postmaster. Wow. That’s a long time.

GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. Well, it wasn’t a hard job. RACHEL MASON: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, you must’ve liked it.

GLORIA McNUTT: I did. It was right at home. I could -- even if I were baking cookies, I could just burn a few and run out to the post office and come back.

KAREN BREWSTER: And raising your children, you could be at home with your children.

GLORIA McNUTT: Correct. Hm-mm.

TERRY STONE: Well, at the last they built a new building in Sterling. Remember, the last couple of years.

GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. And I had to go down there, and I didn’t like that.

KAREN BREWSTER: You didn’t like having to go to a separate building?

GLORIA McNUTT: No. It was all the way the other side of town. Other end of town, I guess I should say.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, but by then your children were grown and in school anyway. GLORIA McNUTT: Oh yes. Hm-mm. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Right.

RACHEL MASON: Well, when -- how did your husband get started in the Chisana area? How did he start guiding there?

GLORIA McNUTT: Hm. I have to think a minute.

TERRY STONE: He met Larry Folger in the ‘60s, you said.

GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, that’s right. Uh-huh. I guess that was it.

RACHEL MASON: Who's Larry Folger?

GLORIA McNUTT: He was the man who had the outfit up there. RACHEL MASON: I see.

GLORIA McNUTT: He had a guiding outfit up there, and so my husband met him, and Folger decided that he had had enough of Alaska. He wanted to go south.

So my husband bought his equipment and so forth, and put in for the area himself. And so that started it.

RACHEL MASON: Oh, okay. And can you just describe what he would do when he guided people? Did he, you know, provide them with their own gun to shoot with? Or did they -- they -- ?

GLORIA McNUTT: No. Everybody brought their own guns up. RACHEL MASON: Yeah. Yeah, okay.

GLORIA McNUTT: He would just provide the transportation to the hunting area, the horses and so forth, and the food, and --

TERRY STONE: Tents and all that. GLORIA McNUTT: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: The equipment? The camping gear -- GLORIA McNUTT: Right, all the equipment. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

RACHEL MASON: And did you tell us before that you took care of the paperwork or the business parts of it? What did you do for the -- the guiding operation?

GLORIA McNUTT: Take care of the paperwork.

TERRY STONE: Well, you organized all the groceries. Did all the grocery shopping. ROGER STONE: Cooked.

RACHEL MASON: Did you cook? TERRY STONE: Plus each hunt had seperate groceries and --

GLORIA McNUTT: Oh yes. Uh-huh.

ROGER STONE: She cooked, too. TERRY STONE: And you cooked. KAREN BREWSTER: You cooked?

GLORIA McNUTT: I cooked when they were there at base camp.

KAREN BREWSTER: So tell us. So you had a base camp?

GLORIA McNUTT: Yeah. That was Chisana. KAREN BREWSTER: At Chisana? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so you cooked for them? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm.

TERRY STONE: In the summers, when -- before she retired, she would take leave and go up there.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. So I’m repeating what you’re saying because we can’t hear on the microphone. TERRY STONE: That's fine.

KAREN BREWSTER: So in the summertimes, you’d take leave from the post office and go help at Chisana? TERRY STONE: Before you retired. KAREN BREWSTER: Before you retired?

TERRY STONE: Yeah, you did. GLORIA McNUTT: Yeah, I guess I did. I didn’t remember. That’s a long time ago.

KAREN BREWSTER: That's a long time ago. So you had to take care of all the groceries? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, sure!

KAREN BREWSTER: How did you do that? GLORIA McNUTT: No problem. You just buy ‘em and send ’em up.

TERRY STONE: Well, no, but you would keep a list and you would sort them out for each particular hunt. How many people were on certain hunts.

So you would buy 'em based on that or who was coming on the hunt. RACHEL MASON: What kind of food -- ?

GLORIA McNUTT: Her memory’s better than mine.

RACHEL MASON: What kind of food did you fix for them for the -- for the hunts? GLORIA McNUTT: Just regular food. TERRY STONE: Wild game. GLORIA McNUTT: Well, yes, the meat would be.

KAREN BREWSTER: From what they’d hunted? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. Or what the --

TERRY STONE: No, what she already had.

KAREN BREWSTER: What you already had. GLORIA McNUTT: What the hunter before them -- RACHEL MASON: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh yes. Yeah. RACHEL MASON: Yeah, give them a little taste of the -- the meat. GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: Or what your husband had hunted down on the Kenai or something? GLORIA McNUTT: Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And then did you order, like, number-ten cans of tomatoes and -- ?

GLORIA McNUTT: No, I didn’t. One time I went over to Coop -- Oh, what’s the town there? TERRY STONE: Cooper Landing. GLORIA McNUTT: Cooper -- no, not Cooper Landing. TERRY STONE: Where? GLORIA McNUTT: All the way to Seward. Halfway to Seward there. TERRY STONE: Moose Pass?

GLORIA McNUTT: Moose Pass. Uh-huh. And all they had was these great big number-ten cans, and I thought how will I ever use all that up? So I didn’t buy but one or two. RACHEL MASON: Oh.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I'd think for all those hunters that you’d -- that would be a lot of food.

GLORIA McNUTT: Well, they’re not there at one time. TERRY STONE: Yeah, she had to separate it.

GLORIA McNUTT: You couldn’t keep it up there in the hot weather, so forth. I mean you’re out in the mountains in the hot weather.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you had to keep ordering fresh food?

GLORIA McNUTT: Well, no. Just the canned stuff mainly. They didn’t get too much fresh stuff out at the camp. They could get that back in town. RACHEL MASON: Yeah, okay.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so where did you get the groceries? In Anchorage? TERRY STONE: Yeah, from Anchorage. GLORIA McNUTT: From Anchorage and --

TERRY STONE: He would fly ‘em up there or they would drive ‘em to Northway and he would fly ‘em in from Northway.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. Well, to me it sounds like a lot of details to keep track of. GLORIA McNUTT: Preparation, yes.

KAREN BREWSTER: Lots of preparation of this much flour and this much pasta and this many beans. And to know for how many people and how many trips. GLORIA McNUTT: I had a list. I’d just go by my list.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, how did you -- at some point you had to start with no list. How did you figure that out?

TERRY STONE: Trial and error. GLORIA McNUTT: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: Trial and error.

GLORIA McNUTT: I’d get -- I’d get fussed at because I -- they didn’t have enough of one thing or another. So I’d remember it for next time. RACHEL MASON: That's good.

KAREN BREWSTER: And did you bake things? Did they get cookies and bread? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes! Oh my, yes. I don’t bake bread very good.

TERRY STONE: Well, when he would hire cooks, they would bake bread. GLORIA McNUTT: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So, he did hire cooks? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes.

TERRY STONE: Yeah. ‘Cause she couldn’t be up there all the time.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. You were only on leave from the post office.

GLORIA McNUTT: Correct. Uh-huh. I’d just go up there for a couple of weeks.

RACHEL MASON: And -- and did he also hire assistant guides? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. Hm-mm.

RACHEL MASON: How -- how many people altogether worked -- worked in his guiding operation?

GLORIA McNUTT: At one time there wasn’t too many. But there would be a -- a turnover. RACHEL MASON: I see.

KAREN BREWSTER: So did he hire the same assistant every year? Or he --

GLORIA McNUTT: He would if they were available. But they weren’t always available. They’d go out and start business of their own. Guiding business.

KAREN BREWSTER: Were there any of those assistant guides you remember in particular that your husband really liked working with? Any names that come to mind? TERRY STONE: Howard. You can tell them about Howard.

GLORIA McNUTT: Yeah, Howard and Lee. I can’t remember. Howard Wordinger. He’s in -- TERRY STONE: Oregon. GLORIA McNUTT: -- Oregon right now. TERRY STONE: He was a barber.

GLORIA McNUTT: And he would come back up and guide for my husband and go back down to Oregon.

RACHEL MASON: He was a barber? GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh.

TERRY STONE: Had this real fancy moustache. GLORIA McNUTT: Yeah. He curled it. RACHEL MASON: Oh nice. Even out in the wilderness? GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: So why did your husband particularly like working with him?

TERRY STONE: He was real helpful. GLORIA McNUTT: I don't know. TERRY STONE: He was handy with everything. He got along good with clients.

RACHEL MASON: Were there any repeat clients that came back year after year? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. Uh-huh. Until they got all the animals that were available.

RACHEL MASON: Are there any particular clients you remember? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, my goodness. My memory's not working today. KAREN BREWSTER: That's okay. RACHEL MASON: It’s okay. GLORIA McNUTT: I’m sorry. KAREN BREWSTER: It's okay.

TERRY STONE: He had a lot of German hunters. Hunters from Texas. All over the place. But the German hunters, you could tell them about when the Germans couldn’t speak English and they would want to shoot everything.

KAREN BREWSTER: So tell us about the German hunters.

TERRY STONE: That was more when he was hunting in Port Heiden. For bear.

GLORIA McNUTT: And he would say, he learned, "Nein, nein." And they’ll -- and they’d put up -- push up the gun -- and he’d push it up and -- they’d throw out their gun, and he’d push it up, "Nein, nein, nein! No, no. We get a bigger one later!" Oh, that was the only thing that stopped them.

RACHEL MASON: Yeah. That’s funny. The thought of the bigger one. GLORIA McNUTT: Right.

RACHEL MASON: Well, how -- how did he advertise? Or how did -- how did people -- how did he recruit clients? GLORIA McNUTT: Well, word-of-mouth and then he advertised in some magazines or so, I think

KAREN BREWSTER: Alaska magazine, maybe? Alaska Sportsman? TERRY STONE: Might have been. GLORIA McNUTT: Very probably. TERRY STONE: That was way before the Internet. It was mostly reputation.

ROGER STONE: Well, he was president of the professional hunters association. TERRY STONE: Oh yeah, that's right. GLORIA McNUTT: Guides association, uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: So, say that he was president of the professional guides association in Alaska? GLORIA McNUTT: Correct. For two years. I mean, two different terms.

KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. And that sounds like a prestigious --

GLORIA McNUTT: Well, his name got -- I mean, people got to know him. I remember leaving the Peninsula (Kenai) and coming up to Anchorage for one of the meetings and, I mean, it was a big turnout.

RACHEL MASON: Did -- did he get a lot of foreign clients? GLORIA McNUTT: Not a lot, but he got some every year.

RACHEL MASON: Oh. Where were they from usually? GLORIA McNUTT: Germany and -- TERRY STONE: Switzerland, I think. I don't remember where else.

GLORIA McNUTT: I know he had a good German clientele.

RACHEL MASON: Yeah. Well it sounded like the German clients really wanted to get the biggest anima they -- they could. GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, of course!

RACHEL MASON: Was that true of everybody, that -- that they -- GLORIA McNUTT: Well, of course everybody wanted a good one. RACHEL MASON: Yeah.

GLORIA McNUTT: And so not everybody could have the best, so -- I don’t know how he worked that.

KAREN BREWSTER: What was his success rate? Did clients always walk away having -- with an animal?

GLORIA McNUTT: I think mostly. TERRY STONE: Mostly. Not always. GLORIA McNUTT: Not always. But I’d say eighty-five percent of the time. At least. Maybe ninety.

TERRY STONE: And then when they didn’t get an animal, he would bring them back for a reduced rate the next year. RACHEL MASON: Oh, that’s nice.

TERRY STONE: Because he cultivated the sheep. He didn’t want to completely annihilate the sheep herd, so he would cultivate it and make sure that they wasn’t always taking out all the big rams so nothing was left. RACHEL MASON: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh yeah, so he was managing the sheep population to keep it sustainable. TERRY STONE: Yes. KAREN BREWSTER: Otherwise he would’ve been out of a job. GLORIA McNUTT: Correct. KAREN BREWSTER: Right?

TERRY STONE: Well, and he didn’t believe in doing that anyway.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And I don't -- Do -- do all guides do that or that was something special about him? TERRY STONE: No. GLORIA McNUTT: No. Goodness, no. TERRY STONE: He was pretty rare. RACHEL MASON: That's great. KAREN BREWSTER: That was special about him.

GLORIA McNUTT: They take the first thing they see. I mean, they have the hunter take the first thing they see. And they don’t care if it’s -- if it takes it all or not.

KAREN BREWSTER: So he was keeping track of the animals and would -- GLORIA McNUTT: Correct. KAREN BREWSTER: -- steer the hunter to a certain place for a certain animal? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. He does sound special.

RACHEL MASON: Were they almost all for sheep? The -- the hunts? TERRY STONE: At Chisana, they -- RACHEL MASON: In the Chisana? GLORIA McNUTT: In Chisana. Uh-huh. TERRY STONE: Once in a while a moose and caribou. GLORIA McNUTT: Down on the Alaska Peninsula it was the bear. RACHEL MASON: Oh!

KAREN BREWSTER: But Chisana's sheep, caribou, moose? Mostly sheep. GLORIA McNUTT: Mostly sheep.

RACHEL MASON: Were there a lot of other guides working at the same time? KAREN BREWSTER: In Chisana? RACHEL MASON: In Chisana? GLORIA McNUTT: No, there was just one at the other end of the airstrip. Terry Overly.

RACHEL MASON: Okay. And did they ever work together or --? GLORIA McNUTT: No.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did they get along with each other? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes.

KAREN BREWSTER: I was wondering about the competition. If you’re in the same kinda area. GLORIA McNUTT: No. Terry hunted one area and my husband hunted another, so they didn’t hunt at the same spot.

RACHEL MASON: Did they work that out together? That -- that they’d each be in separate territory? TERRY STONE: It was -- I think it was based on the grazing lease or something. GLORIA McNUTT: Right. It wasn’t up to him. TERRY STONE: They had certain areas.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I think that’s the permitting system. GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. KAREN BREWSTER: You get guiding areas. GLORIA McNUTT: Somebody made the guiding areas.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And do you remember if your husband kind of asked for a specific area? Did he say, "I’d like this area?" Or it was just arbitrarily given to him?

TERRY STONE: Well, he had certain areas, I think, when he bought it from Folger. ‘Cause he had Horsfeld and all in between, so --

GLORIA McNUTT: Even before the guiding system came in to his -- to actuality, why, he was already hunting up there, so he knew where he wanted. TERRY STONE: I think he was grandfathered in.

RACHEL MASON: He was -- he -- he bought the business. But did you -- TERRY STONE: And the property. RACHEL MASON: You had property, also? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. Uh-huh. We still do.

KAREN BREWSTER: So the business came with some property for base camp? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes.

TERRY STONE: Eighteen and a half acres. And you can’t buy that there anymore.

KAREN BREWSTER: No, it’s all within the park. Right. So you have an inholding there.

RACHEL MASON: How did you access -- how did he access the hunts? Did he bring the clients by plane and then on -- on --? GLORIA McNUTT: You had to. You had to fly to get into there.

RACHEL MASON: Did you use horses, also? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. He had horses at both Chisana and Horsfeld.

RACHEL MASON: Oh, okay. Did you -- Where did you keep the horses? GLORIA McNUTT: They roamed free all winter. RACHEL MASON: Oh, really?! GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. Between Horsfeld and -- oh -- TERRY STONE: Chisana. KAREN BREWSTER: Chisana? GLORIA McNUTT: Chisana.

TERRY STONE: He would fly and check on 'em. But sometimes he would lose some during the winter. Wolves would get 'em.

RACHEL MASON: Yeah. I imagine. GLORIA McNUTT: That would be the only way he'd lose them was wolves. KAREN BREWSTER: Was wolves.

GLORIA McNUTT: There was one horse that he really liked. Great big fella. And when he flew over this one spring, he saw -- what was his name? TERRY STONE: Pink? Is that the one you’re talking about? ROGER STONE: Bob. GLORIA McNUTT: Bob. TERRY STONE: Bob? He didn’t care about Bob that much.

GLORIA McNUTT: Well anyway, the horse -- that he could see where the wolves had chased him up and got his feet on ice and he couldn’t stand. So he fell down and the wolves just got him. RACHEL MASON: Oh. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. RACHEL MASON: That must've been sad.

GLORIA McNUTT: I just hated to hear that, because he was a good horse. RACHEL MASON: Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And the -- the horses had enough to eat out there in the winter by roaming around? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. Right, TERRY STONE: Yeah, they would paw -- ROGER STONE: They would paw for their food. GLORIA McNUTT: Right. Uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: They’d dig through the snow? ROGER STONE: Through the snow. GLORIA McNUTT: There would be -- not a river -- anyway, they would paw -- yeah.

TERRY STONE: But he would fly them in feed once in a while -- KAREN BREWSTER: Well, that's what I was wondering -- TERRY STONE: -- if he thought -- if they needed it, he would fly ‘em in feed.

KAREN BREWSTER: That's what I was wondering if he brought in feed in the winter to supplement? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh yes. Right. TERRY STONE: He did. Yes. GLORIA McNUTT: He brought in a lot of hay.

KAREN BREWSTER: How many horses total did he have at any one time? TERRY STONE: About thirty. KAREN BREWSTER: Thirty horses? TERRY STONE: It varied between twenty-five and thirty. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh okay. That’s a lot of horses. TERRY STONE: Hm-mm. GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm.

TERRY STONE: He would split them up into little groups during the winter. The horses that buddied up with each other. Because in the groups they could survive really well. RACHEL MASON: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Oh yeah, all twenty-five aren’t wandering around together. TERRY STONE: No. GLORIA McNUTT: No. Uh-uhn. KAREN BREWSTER: That wouldn’t work very well.

TERRY STONE: No. He would put them up certain canyons and let them winter there. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, I see.

ROGER STONE: Some of them would go back to Canada, and he’d have to go get ‘em. TERRY STONE: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: They didn’t know anything about the Canadian border? They'd wander where ever? GLORIA McNUTT: No, for some reason. TERRY STONE: ‘Cause he would buy horses in Canada, so they were trying to go back home, I guess. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I don't know.

RACHEL MASON: Did -- did the other guide, Terry, did he have horses, too? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. Uh-huh.

RACHEL MASON: And did he do the same thing with his horses in the wintertime? TERRY STONE: Oh, he doesn’t take good care of his horses. RACHEL MASON: Hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: But that’s the norm -- Up there, that’s what people do. They just leave them in the winter. GLORIA McNUTT: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: I've heard that -- GLORIA McNUTT: He put his across the river and let them go.

KAREN BREWSTER: I’ve heard that from other people, that they did that. TERRY STONE: He has buddies out there, so he can check on 'em.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. So, the -- did the horses come with the business when he bought it from Folger? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. Some did and then he bought more.

KAREN BREWSTER: So how did he get the horses up there originally? GLORIA McNUTT: Folger? KAREN BREWSTER: No. Your husband. GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, he would go to Canada and truck ‘em up and then walk ‘em in from the highway there at -- RACHEL MASON: Oh. TERRY STONE: Beaver Creek. GLORIA McNUTT: Beaver Creek.

KAREN BREWSTER: Wow. In the summertime? TERRY STONE: Yeah. summertime. GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. Have to be. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. It’s a long walk in. But I guess maybe if you’re riding a horse, it’s not so far. GLORIA McNUTT: Correct. RACHEL MASON: Yeah. Yeah, he'd go -- GLORIA McNUTT: Just a couple of big streams you had to cross.

RACHEL MASON: So there -- was there -- there was a place on the Dawson Highway that -- that he would -- he'd start out from, or a path that went -- ? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: There’s a trail that goes up to Horsfeld? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. trail. TERRY STONE: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

RACHEL MASON: So it sounds like he had two different base camps, one in Horsfeld and one at Chisana. Is that correct? GLORIA McNUTT: Right. Hm-mm.

RACHEL MASON: And did you ever go to Horsfeld to -- to work? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. Uh-huh.

RACHEL MASON: How did he divide it up between them? Or why would he go to one or the other? GLORIA McNUTT: Well, he didn’t do too much hunting out of Chisana. RACHEL MASON: Oh. GLORIA McNUTT: So, he did -- TERRY STONE: It depended on where he was hunting. If it was closer to Chisana, he would go out of there.

KAREN BREWSTER : So for -- for different animals did he go one place or the other? Like if he was going to go for caribou he’d leave from Chisana, or it didn’t matter? GLORIA McNUTT: I don’t think so. TERRY STONE: Didn't matter. GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-uhn. No.

KAREN BREWSTER: So do you know, how many people would he take out in one group? How many clients at one time? GLORIA McNUTT: Not over two. KAREN BREWSTER: Only two at a time? GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. TERRY STONE: Usually one, unless -- GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. Usually one.

TERRY STONE: But, like, a father and a son would come. You know, if they’re in their own party then they would go. But usually it was one specific client.

Then assistant guide would take another client because they're paying for their own hunt. They don’t necessarily want to, you know, be distracted by some other hunter.

RACHEL MASON: Yeah. And then after -- after the animal was taken, did the clients take the meat or did you take some meat? GLORIA McNUTT: They took some. RACHEL MASON: They took some? GLORIA McNUTT: They’d take a couple of steaks or something.

TERRY STONE: Well, sometimes they’d take more, because sheep meat’s really good meat. GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. I forgot about the sheep. TERRY STONE: Usually, they would take it if they could.

GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. And then what was left was brought to me over at Chisana and I’d take care of it. RACHEL MASON: Okay. GLORIA McNUTT: He had a meat house and hang up the quarters, and then I would go out with the wheeler and put ‘em on, bring them out to the kitchen and hang up.

We had a great big hook. And I’d cut up the meat and wrap it up and put it in the freezer.

RACHEL MASON: Okay. And did you preserve it by freezing? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. Freezing. RACHEL MASON: Was that the only way that you --? GLORIA McNUTT: No, I canned a lot. RACHEL MASON: Canned? Oh.

KAREN BREWSTER: I was going to say, you had a freezer out at Chisana? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, there’s electricity out there? TERRY STONE: Yeah. GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, okay. TERRY STONE: A generator.

KAREN BREWSTER: There’s a generator? I see. And then at the end of the summer, if there was meat left, you’d bring it into town? Or did you eat it all? GLORIA McNUTT: I’m trying to think what happened.

TERRY STONE: Well, I think you’d bring the frozen stuff back if there was any. But the canned stuff stayed up there in the (inaudible). KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, ‘cause it can freeze. TERRY STONE: Hm-mm. GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. RACHEL MASON: Yeah, you can --

RACHEL MASON: And then would you take it all -- just leave it in the freezer there in Chisana, or would you take some of it back to the Kenai with you? GLORIA McNUTT: Well, I’d take it back to Sterling. RACHEL MASON: Back to Sterling? GLORIA McNUTT: So that’s what we would eat all the rest of the year.

RACHEL MASON: Uh-huh. Who took care of the post office when you were up in -- in the Wrangells? GLORIA McNUTT: Well, Nina Robinson did for a while. TERRY STONE: She was a neighbor that lived about a mile and a half away. RACHEL MASON: I see. GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. And then Rosa Diggs. I think that was her name. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: But after you retired from the post office, would you then spend all summer in Chisana? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. Uh-huh. TERRY STONE: That’s when you moved there for three years.

GLORIA McNUTT: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, you moved there? RACHEL MASON: Oh, you moved there full-time? GLORIA McNUTT: Right. RACHEL MASON: And what year was that? TERRY STONE: It was around ’89 or ’90, I think. RACHEL MASON: Oh, okay. KAREN BREWSTER: '89 or '90? GLORIA McNUTT: Sounds right. RACHEL MASON: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you lived there all year round? GLORIA McNUTT: Where? KAREN BREWSTER: In Chisana. GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. Uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: So tell us about that. What that -- Tell me what it was like living in Chisana. GLORIA McNUTT: Mm. Well, I didn’t think anything about it at the time, so -- TERRY STONE: It was cold. ROGER STONE: Pretty cold. TERRY STONE: Fifty below in the winter. GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: It was cold. TERRY STONE: Not much to do. GLORIA McNUTT: Very cold. You had to dress up to go out to the outhouse. TERRY STONE: Had to keep a path shoveled to the outhouse. RACHEL MASON: Oh, gee. ROGER STONE: Read a lot of books.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I was going to say, what did you do for entertainment? TERRY STONE: They had a TV. GLORIA McNUTT: We had a TV. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, you had a TV? TERRY STONE: And a dish.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then you read a lot of books? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. I read a lot. TERRY STONE: Plus, you brought cross-country skis, so you could go skiing. RACHEL MASON: That's good. GLORIA McNUTT: But I didn’t do that much. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, you brought skis, but you didn’t really use them? TERRY STONE: No. GLORIA McNUTT: Just a little. TERRY STONE: It’s harder than it looks.

RACHEL MASON: What about neighbors? Were there other -- other people living out there? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh yes, but they were -- Overlys, let’s see, were over two miles down the runway. And there were people across Chisana Creek, but I just saw them on mail days. They’d come over to get their mail.

RACHEL MASON: I see. Oh, so you were -- you were the postmaster in Chisana, also? TERRY STONE: No, it's -- KAREN BREWSTER: No, the mail plane would -- the mail plane would come? GLORIA McNUTT: No, the mail plane would just come and everybody would meet it. RACHEL MASON: Oh, everybod would grab it. KAREN BREWSTER: And that was once a week you’d get mail? GLORIA McNUTT: Usually. Sometimes in the winter it wasn’t that often. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, weather dependent. GLORIA McNUTT: Correct.

RACHEL MASON: Did the other people and you ever get together for dinners or just visit each other? GLORIA McNUTT: No, we would visit each other, but not at a specific time or so forth. RACHEL MASON: I see. I see.

KAREN BREWSTER: And by that time your children were grown, so it was just you and your husband? GLORIA McNUTT: Mm-hm. Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: And what did he do during the winters? He wasn’t taking people guiding, was he? GLORIA McNUTT: No. Uh-uhn. Shoveling snow, I guess.

KAREN BREWSTER: And sewing up tents? TERRY STONE: Just projects and -- RACHEL MASON: Yeah. GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. I had a big sewing machine over -- I had the sewing machine over in the big house, and -- Well, I usually patched the tents. But he had to help sometimes.

TERRY STONE: Well, and you made nosebags for the horses. For the feed. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, feed bags for the horses? RACHEL MASON: Oh, yeah. GLORIA McNUTT: Yes, uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: And he probably went out and checked on the horses? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, my yes. He flew out and checked on them all the time.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so at this point, you -- you had your own airplane? GLORIA McNUTT: Well, he always had an airplane. KAREN BREWSTER: He already -- already had -- okay. TERRY STONE: Two airplanes. KAREN BREWSTER: Two airplanes? GLORIA McNUTT: Right. Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: His and hers? GLORIA McNUTT: I guess you could say that.

KAREN BREWSTER: ‘Cause you were a pilot, also? GLORIA McNUTT: I got my license, yes. I didn’t fly much, but I got my license.

KAREN BREWSTER: When did you get your license? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm. KAREN BREWSTER: Remember how old you were? GLORIA McNUTT: No. TERRY STONE: It was -- it was -- she was old. Probably -- Let’s see, you were in your fifties, I think, when you got your license. KAREN BREWSTER: You were in your fifites?

So why did you decide to get a pilot’s license? TERRY STONE: In case there was an emergency, then she would be able to take over the controls or something. You know, because they were living remote. RACHEL MASON: Yeah. That’s a good idea. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. As a backup. TERRY STONE: Yes. GLORIA McNUTT: Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: An emergency backup. So did you ever fly -- fly back and forth on your own from Chisana? GLORIA McNUTT: Several times. Not many. I remember one time coming back. There around Gulkana, it got really windy. And the wings were really doing this (motions up and down movement with her arms). And I was wondering, what in the world am I going to do? Where can I land? And so I didn’t fly that much after that.

RACHEL MASON: Well, it’s really good that you did know how to do it in case of emergency. GLORIA McNUTT: Oh. Uh-huh. That’s why I learned.

RACHEL MASON: Do you remember when the -- the -- the park became a park in 1980? If that affected your husband’s guiding business, or you and your husband’s guiding? GLORIA McNUTT: Let me think. RACHEL MASON: 'Cause there was hunting only allowed in the preserve. TERRY STONE: I think there was certain things he had to do, you know. GLORIA McNUTT: Right. TERRY STONE: But I don't remember.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I'd say, you did all the paperwork for the business. Do you remember in the 1980s if all of a sudden you had to do more paperwork or jump through more hoops or -- ? GLORIA McNUTT: No, I don’t remember. TERRY STONE: I think she did. I think they did have to do a lot more paperwork. Different filing of different stuff. GLORIA McNUTT: Probably did. I did a lot of paperwork. He was president of the guides association for a while, and I did a lot of paperwork then, too.

TERRY STONE: But he always kept up with whatever rules he had to follow, so that was --

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, yeah. He wanted to keep guiding, so he followed the rules so he could -- GLORIA McNUTT: Oh my, yes. KAREN BREWSTER: -- continue to have his business. GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. KAREN BREWSTER: Sounds like he was very successful as a guide. GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. Uh-huh.

RACHEL MASON: Were there some changes that took place over the years? Like, he was a guide for a very long time. And were there some changes that affected his -- his business over the years? GLORIA McNUTT: I’m sure there were. I just can’t think right now what.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, or did statehood cha -- when Alaska became a state, did that affect his business? RACHEL MASON: Did that make a big -- KAREN BREWSTER: Do you remember? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm. My memory's terrible today. RACHEL MASON: That's okay.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, it’s just if he’d talked about it to you. If he ever mentioned something. You know. TERRY STONE: I don’t know if he was a guide before it became a state, was he? KAREN BREWSTER: Well, in -- in the ‘50s. TERRY STONE: Yeah, I don’t think he was guiding in the ‘50s. Because he was still working at Anchorage Sand and Gravel and then the fire department and --

Yeah, he might have been guiding in the ‘50s, I guess. Yeah, I don’t know.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I was thinking when they were out on the homestead, he was guiding a little bit out there. TERRY STONE: Yeah, he was. KAREN BREWSTER: So -- TERRY STONE: He was taking those hunters.

RACHEL MASON: You -- you mentioned that he was concerned about the sheep population. I wonder if there -- if you have seen changes in the sheep population over the years? TERRY STONE: Yes. GLORIA McNUTT: Sure, Uh-huh.

RACHEL MASON: What’s been happening with it? TERRY STONE: Decline. RACHEL MASON: Decline? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. For sure. RACHEL MASON: Just generally it's straight decline?

TERRY STONE: Some -- some guys go in there and take a lot of sheep. KAREN BREWSTER: So, you're saying that -- that -- GLORIA McNUTT: And some people go and take it that are not guides. RACHEL MASON: Oh. KAREN BREWSTER: You mean not legally? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. TERRY STONE: Well, and there's others that -- Residents don't need guides. KAREN BREWSTER: There’s subsistence. GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. Residents. TERRY STONE: Yeah, subsistence.

KAREN BREWSTER: There’s subsistence where they’re -- they're allowed to go. TERRY STONE: Yes. GLORIA McNUTT: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: Take -- You don't --

I was gonna say, you don’t have to have a guide to hunt there, do you? TERRY STONE: No, but there are -- ROGER STONE: You have to be a resident. TERRY STONE: There are certain rules. If you’re a resident, you can take certain things that -- I mean, if you live -- if you’re a resident of Chisana. KAREN BREWSTER: Right, right. TERRY STONE: You can take certain things. And there’s not too many full-time residents of Chisana. KAREN BREWSTER: No. GLORIA McNUTT: No.

KAREN BREWSTER: But have -- have you noticed a change in the sheep population besides from people hunting it? GLORIA McNUTT: No, because I don’t get out and fly around. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. GLORIA McNUTT: If I did, I could see.

KAREN BREWSTER: When you were living there, did you notice? GLORIA McNUTT: Because I still didn’t get out and fly.

KAREN BREWSTER: But he -- your husband talk about it at all? GLORIA McNUTT: No. TERRY STONE: I think there was always less rams. There’s plenty of ewes and stuff. It seemed like there was less rams through time.

RACHEL MASON: And rams are the ones that people hunt, so that would -- that would -- GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. The ones with the big horns. RACHEL MASON: Seem like hunting was affecting it. KAREN BREWSTER: Those are the ones people are hunting first. Yeah. Just guided hunting? Yeah. GLORIA McNUTT: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

RACHEL MASON: And did you notice any other environmental changes? Just, you know, the different other animals being -- increasing or less, or temperatures, climate change, or anything like that? GLORIA McNUTT: I’m sorry, I just didn’t pay any attention. TERRY STONE: Well, there’s rabbit years. The rabbits go in cycles. GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. Uh-huh. TERRY STONE: So some years there’s a lot, a lot of rabbits. And other years not so many. GLORIA McNUTT: And then the lynx. The lynx would be there if there was lots of rabbits. TERRY STONE: They go in cycles, also.

RACHEL MASON: So -- so in some years there’s more rabbits than others? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. RACHEL MASON: What -- how often is that? TERRY STONE: I think it’s like every seven years or so there's a lot of rabbits. GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. It's a cycle. RACHEL MASON: Wow. TERRY STONE: But, I don't know that for sure.

KAREN BREWSTER: So if it’s a high rabbit year, what does that do to the other animals and the plants and things? GLORIA McNUTT: I have no idea.

KAREN BREWSTER: So, I was going to say, like a high rabbit year, what does that mean? Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? TERRY STONE: It just means you see a lot of rabbits. KAREN BREWSTER: You just see a lot of rabbits? GLORIA McNUTT: Right.

ROGER STONE: And other -- other game -- predatory. You see fox and probably lynx and -- GLORIA McNUTT: Yeah. Lynx. Like him (referring to stuffed lynx in the room) RACHEL MASON: Whatever feeds on the rabbits is -- ROGER STONE: Yeah, right. KAREN BREWSTER: Is going to increase? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm.

ROGER STONE: Eagles. GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. TERRY STONE: See a lot of eagles up there.

KAREN BREWSTER: A lot of eagles up there? GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, I’ve never been to Chisana or Horsfeld. Can you describe it for me? What it looks like. What it’s like as a place. TERRY STONE: Well, you’ve got that book of pictures. Do you want me to go get it? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes, would you please. TERRY STONE: It's downstairs, so -- ROGER STONE: You know where it's at? TERRY STONE: I think it's called photos. On her -- ROGER STONE: Yeah. TERRY STONE: It might be by that couch? The end table by the couch. GLORIA McNUTT: Good thing she’s here.RACHEL MASON: Yeah, right.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, while were waiting for the photos, how would you describe it? GLORIA McNUTT: What? KAREN BREWSTER: Chisana and Horsfeld. GLORIA McNUTT: Wilderness. Lots of trees. KAREN BREWSTER: Lots of trees? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. KAREN BREWSTER: And it’s in the mountains? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes! Uh-huh.

RACHEL MASON: And -- and you said you had a TV. Did you have a telephone out there? GLORIA McNUTT: Later. Not at first. RACHEL MASON: Later? Oh.

KAREN BREWSTER: But when you were living -- those three years you lived there in the '80s -- late ‘80s? Early ‘90s? TERRY STONE: Early '80s, I think. KAREN BREWSTER: Early ‘80s? Did you have a telephone? GLORIA McNUTT: We had a -- TERRY STONE: You had a telephone that -- first you had a -- some other kind of phone. GLORIA McNUTT: Yeah.

TERRY STONE: You might want to tell them about Caribou Clatter. That’s how you had to communicate back in the early days. GLORIA McNUTT: Right. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, Caribou Clatter. Tell us about that.

GLORIA McNUTT: Have you ever heard of Caribou Clatter? KAREN BREWSTER: No. GLORIA McNUTT: It’s a message service out of Glennallen. RACHEL MASON: Oh. GLORIA McNUTT: And for people out in the Bush. And the -- it comes on -- oh, say two or three times a day.

And so everybody out in the Bush turns it on. And there'd be message, "So and so, be sure and call your mother." So and so, do this and do that. RACHEL MASON: Yeah, right. KAREN BREWSTER: And that was on the radio? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes, uh-huh. Radio. TERRY STONE: Yeah, radio station.

KAREN BREWSTER: The radio sta -- Like the AM radio station? TERRY STONE: The Glennallen radio station. GLORIA McNUTT: Glennallen radio station. They probably still have it. KAREN BREWSTER: Probably.

RACHEL MASON: And everybody listens at a certain time of day? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh my, yes! Uh-huh. TERRY STONE: Here, so you can hold the book up. GLORIA McNUTT: Thank you.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did you have VHF radios to talk to each other? Like the airplane to ground? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. We did. TERRY STONE: Well, she had a radio between her -- Chisana and Horsfeld, also. GLORIA McNUTT: But not -- Here, you can look at it (handing photo album to Rachel).

RACHEL MASON: Yeah. Maybe I can ask you about certain ones here? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. GLORIA McNUTT: Good. RACHEL MASON: See, this has -- Should I hold it up? KAREN BREWSTER: Uh, yeah.

RACHEL MASON: This is the overhead view., KAREN BREWSTER: Which one? The top one? RACHEL MASON: The top one. And this -- this is Chis -- is this at Chisana? This first page? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. Uh-huh. TERRY STONE: All of those are Chisana. I think, most of them are.

RACHEL MASON: Okay. And so you had a cache there and a kitchen. GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. RACHEL MASON: How did you wash your clothes when you were out there? GLORIA McNUTT: I had a wringer washing machine. RACHEL MASON: Oh, you did? Oh, okay. TERRY STONE: There was a bathhouse. RACHEL MASON: Oh, okay.

KAREN BREWSTER: You had a lot of buildings. RACHEL MASON: Yeah, you sure did. GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. We had twenty or twenty-one or -- RACHEL MASON: Pretty nice. KAREN BREWSTER: When you said base camp, I was imagining a wall-tent. TERRY STONE: No. GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, no. Uh-uhn.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you had like a lodge, sort of? GLORIA McNUTT: Well, I had a lot of log buildings. KAREN BREWSTER: Log buildings, but -- yeah.

TERRY STONE: The base camp -- what you’re thinking of is what my dad would call a spike camp. When they’re out on the horses, then they could camp, and then they hike up the mountains.

KAREN BREWSTER: The spike camp is with the wall-tent? TERRY STONE: Yes. KAREN BREWSTER: That’s when they’re out on the hunt? TERRY STONE: Yes. GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm.

RACHEL MASON: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, I didn’t realize there’re these big buildings in Chisana. GLORIA McNUTT: And at Horsfeld, we had buildings. TERRY STONE: Not as many. GLORIA McNUTT: Not as many, but we had some.

KAREN BREWSTER: So, what were some of the buildings? So, you had -- the main house? RACHEL MASON: There’s all kinds. There’s a sawmill. There’s a -- a -- a horse barn. And -- GLORIA McNUTT: We had a big horse barn. KAREN BREWSTER: That was in Chisana? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes, uh-huh.

RACHEL MASON: And a D6 Cat building. What -- ? That’s just to keep equipment in? GLORIA McNUTT: D6 Cat. We had a D6 Cat. RACHEL MASON: And a whole building for the Cat? GLORIA McNUTT: Well, yes.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, what did you use the Cat for? GLORIA McNUTT: To clear land. It had a great big blade to clear land, dig garbage pits. Knock down trees.

ROGER STONE: Plow the airstrip. KAREN BREWSTER: I was gonna say -- ROGER STONE: He plowed the airstrip. GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. That’s right. KAREN BREWSTER: I was gonna say, clear the airstrip. You guys did that? Or your husband did that? GLORIA McNUTT: Right.

RACHEL MASON: And here’s something. Indian doghouse, 1914. What was that? GLORIA McNUTT: Well, it was just a doghouse that the Indians had. RACHEL MASON: From 1914? GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. RACHEL MASON: Wow.

TERRY STONE: The gold rush was in 1913. RACHEL MASON: From the gold rush? GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. The Chisana gold rush was 1913. RACHEL MASON: So it's -- So -- so this -- this was a little doghouse from that time? GLORIA McNUTT: Right.

RACHEL MASON: And then there’s a log home that’s two bedrooms. Let's see. And a meat-house. Sorry to -- GLORIA McNUTT: That's okay.

RACHEL MASON: There’s lots of storage sheds. Boy, there’s a lot of different -- GLORIA McNUTT: Now this was later when we got wheelers in there. RACHEL MASON: Okay.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you had four-wheelers in there? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. Hm-mm. KAREN BREWSTER: Did you use -- GLORIA McNUTT: And a six-wheeler. RACHEL MASON: Oh.

KAREN BREWSTER: And now did your husband use those out -- to take clients out guiding? GLORIA McNUTT: No, no, no. KAREN BREWSTER: That was just in town? TERRY STONE: Well, it was just in Chisana. GLORIA McNUTT: Just in Chisana. RACHEL MASON: Just in Chisana. KAREN BREWSTER: By town, I mean -- Chisana is town. RACHEL MASON: Yeah. GLORIA McNUTT: Okay.

RACHEL MASON: That six-wheeler is kind of interesting. TERRY STONE: It has a raised-bed dump truck. RACHEL MASON: Oh, oh, I see. GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. It's a dump truck. TERRY STONE: Tilt-bed, yeah. ROGER STONE: Tilt-bed.

RACHEL MASON: And then the cache houses. Did you -- did you use those to -- with -- for the meat? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then did you have, like a guest cabin? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh yes. We had several. TERRY STONE: Several. KAREN BREWSTER: Several. For the clients?

TERRY STONE: She did bed and breakfast, too. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh.

RACHEL MASON: Yeah, I saw there was one back here that was the B&B. GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh.

KAREN BREWSTER: So that was separate from -- was the bed-and-breakfast separate from the guiding business? TERRY STONE: Yes. GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. Uh-huh.

RACHEL MASON: Yeah, here. "B&B cabin now." And it was built in 1935 by Al Wright. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. TERRY STONE: She did a lot for the Park Service and different geophysicists and people that would come in there for mining and -- ROGER STONE: BLM. TERRY STONE: BLM.

KAREN BREWSTER: So your bed-and-breakfast, you hosted scientists and Park Service people? RACHEL MASON: Rangers and -- GLORIA McNUTT: Right.

RACHEL MASON: No kidding. Do you remember any particular Park Service people? GLORIA McNUTT: I remember ‘em, but I can’t think of their names. I remember their faces.

KAREN BREWSTER: Do you remember what they were working on? Do you remember any of the researchers? GLORIA McNUTT: No, I never asked their business. That was one thing I decided I wasn’t going to get into. RACHEL MASON: I see. Did --

KAREN BREWSTER: So, I'm -- just a second. What years did you do that bed-and-breakfast? That was those three years you were living in Chisana? TERRY STONE: Well, and then after they moved back, after living there full-time, they still went up every summer and she did bed and breakfast every summer. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. RACHEL MASON: These are -- GLORIA McNUTT: Okay.

RACHEL MASON: Did -- did you and your husband have pretty good relations with the Park Service, or -- GLORIA McNUTT: I think so. RACHEL MASON: Do you remember any interactions that you had with them? GLORIA McNUTT: No. No problems at all.

In fact, there were several times that somebody would shoot an animal and then it would be -- the season would be over. And so they’d ask my husband to go, you know, get the animal. They wouldn’t let the man who shot it got it. So to me that’s good relations. They trusted him.

RACHEL MASON: Yeah, they -- they knew that he -- he would be able to get it.

Well, can you think of anything else that you -- you'd like us to know about the guiding that you and your husband did? GLORIA McNUTT: Not offhand, I guess.

KAREN BREWSTER: I’d like to know a little bit more about Horsfeld. GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, okay. KAREN BREWSTER: And how that worked in connection to things at Chisana. So, Horsfeld -- it wasn’t a spike camp. It was its own -- GLORIA McNUTT: Its own camp. TERRY STONE: It had a building and a barn and a corral. GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. KAREN BREWSTER: It had a building and -- ? GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes. Two-story -- story and a half building. Log building.

And then this was kind of down at the base of a little knoll, and then up on the knoll we had tent camps.

KAREN BREWSTER: And what would you use the tent camps for? How would they be used? GLORIA McNUTT: For the hunters to stay. And then they would come down to the cabin to eat and spend the night talking and such. When they got back into camp.

RACHEL MASON: So the hunters, wherever they came from, would they usually go -- fly into Anchorage and then -- and then your husband or -- would fly them into Chisana or to Horsfeld? GLORIA McNUTT: I don’t think he came down to Anchorage too much and got them. Do you remember, Terry? RACHEL MASON: How do they get there? Or maybe they --

TERRY STONE: I think he picked some up in Anchorage and some of them -- He picked some up. And some of them -- TERRY STONE: -- drove up to Tok or Northway.

KAREN BREWSTER: And did any of them fly their own planes into the Chisana airstrip? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. I remember that. KAREN BREWSTER: They did? GLORIA McNUTT: Not many, but some did. KAREN BREWSTER: Some did.

But, yeah, it sounds like your husband would go to Northway or Tok or someplace to meet them. GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: It was closer than Anchorage.

RACHEL MASON: Yeah. Does Horsfeld have an airstrip? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. Right. TERRY STONE: Really bad one. KAREN BREWSTER: A bad one? A small one? TERRY STONE: Really rough. GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh, really rough.

KAREN BREWSTER: So what kind of plane did your husband have that he used for the guiding? GLORIA McNUTT: 180. KAREN BREWSTER: A Cessna 180? GLORIA MCNUTT: Uh-huh. We had a Super Cub, too, but -- did he use that for guiding at all? TERRY STONE: Only in the early days for the moose hunts and stuff. He sold that later.

KAREN BREWSTER: So once the clients were there in Chisana or Horsfeld, would they then go walk to the spike camps or they’d fly in? GLORIA McNUTT: Horseback. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, horseback. That’s right. To the spike camps. And then from those spike camps they’d walk up to the peaks. GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh, up the mountain.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah, it’s hard to hike up a mountain for sheep hunting by horseback. Kinda have to climb up. GLORIA McNUTT: Right.

KAREN BREWSTER: Now did you ever go on any of these hunts? GLORIA McNUTT: No. KAREN BREWSTER: No. GLORIA McNUTT: Was not interested.

RACHEL MASON: How about the kids? TERRY STONE: Yeah, I did. RACHEL MASON: You did? And did you, like, work for your father or -- or just come along? TERRY STONE: No, just went for the hunt. Sheep hunt. RACHEL MASON: Oh, nice. GLORIA MCNUTT: I think the hunter had a daughter, and didn’t you both go? TERRY STONE: No, I just wanted to get a sheep, so --

KAREN BREWSTER: So you just went with your dad some other time? TERRY STONE: Hm-mm. I went on one of his hunts when he had a paying client, and I was just sort of a tag-along. The cook and I went up the mountain. Didn’t get a sheep that year, so the next year I went with my dad just specifically and got a sheep. RACHEL MASON: Nice.

KAREN BREWSTER: Very cool. And so you said you had a radio to talk between Horsfeld and Chisana? GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. Sideband radio.

KAREN BREWSTER: So if you were in Chisana hosting guests and cooking, who was in Horsfeld doing that? GLORIA McNUTT: The cook. KAREN BREWSTER: He hired a cook every year? GLORIA McNUTT: Right. And we had to have a certain time to have the radio on. We didn’t just keep it on all the time. It would run the battery down. RACHEL MASON: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: That makes sense, yeah.

So you would have clients in both places sometimes? GLORIA McNUTT: Very seldom. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. It was one or the other? GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. They’d just be in Chisana for a while and then they’d get taken over to Horsfeld.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. And then they’d get taken -- GLORIA McNUTT: Out. KAREN BREWSTER: -- out. Wherever. It sounds pretty exciting. GLORIA McNUTT: It was now that I look back on it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, and I’d say living in Chisana out there in the middle of the Wrangell Mountains for three years, that doesn’t sound easy. GLORIA McNUTT: Well, a lot of things aren’t easy, but you put up with it because you like it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. So, what did you like about it? GLORIA McNUTT: Well, I just liked being out. And you never knew what was going to come by or, you know, what you would see. I’ve seen lynx. I’ve seen coyotes. I’ve seen all kinds of animals and birds.

TERRY STONE: You might want to tell them about the bear that was bothering you just not too long ago. RACHEL MASON: Oh, yeah? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. You had bear problems out there? GLORIA McNUTT: Uh-huh. TERRY STONE: A blond -- wasn’t it a blond grizzly? GLORIA McNUTT: Yes. Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: A blonde grizzly?

GLORIA McNUTT: Where the kitchen was, there was another building right over here, we called the food cache. And so I had two deep freezes on the front of it. And I would keep stuff in there.

And so the bear -- a bear found it and he opened up the -- Well, he pulled the deep-freeze, the best I remember, off the porch onto the yard out there.

And, you know, it opened it up. And so, he just had a heyday. And so, then he decided to go into the building itself.

RACHEL MASON: Oh, gee. Where were you when this was happening? GLORIA McNUTT: I was up in another cabin there, a sleeping cabin. He would come by during the night.

And so, I found -- one time I had a trail of groceries all the way from the cabin all the way to the creek, so I knew that’s where he went.

So I went around picking ‘em up. Seeing if I could use anything that was left.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, so did you -- did you ever have any encounters with bears where you were -- ? GLORIA McNUTT: No, I seen them there, but I've kept my distance.

I remember being in the sleeping cabin and I think I went out on the porch to look. I wasn’t on the porch. But a bear was chasing a moose by -- a moose calf. And so I watched it as it went by. So that was as far as from me to my son-in-law over there. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it's like twenty feet. GLORIA McNUTT: He wasn’t interested in me. Thank goodness.

KAREN BREWSTER: He had a moose calf that would taste much better.

RACHEL MASON: Did -- did your husband and clients, did they ever have any close calls with bears or -- GLORIA McNUTT: I don’t remember him saying anything. TERRY STONE: Yeah, he did when hunters would freeze up and then they wouldn’t -- Yeah, especially the German hunters, you know, sometimes. GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yeah. RACHEL MASON: That he couldn’t communicate with. TERRY STONE: Yeah. He had a few close calls.

KAREN BREWSTER: I would imagine all those years out in Alaska’s wilderness hunting, you’d have some bear encounters. GLORIA McNUTT: Right.

TERRY STONE: But he was -- you remember that one story. What was that one?

ROGER STONE: He was sleeping, and a bear came up to him. He put his hat on the bear’s snout. GLORIA McNUTT: Oh, yes!

ROGER STONE: On the bear’s snout, and it scared the bear, and the bear took off. TERRY STONE: Sometimes he would just talk to 'em. You know --

GLORIA McNUTT: He was just sleeping under a tree then. TERRY STONE: Yeah. GLORIA McNUTT: And the bear came up to sniff him, and so he just took his old, dirty cowboy hat -- Oh, I don’t even have one around here, but anyway. KAREN BREWSTER: I see pictures of him with it. TERRY STONE: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. GLORIA McNUTT: Anyway, it was a real greasy, dirty cowboy hat. And so he just shoved that up in the bear’s face and the bear didn’t like it.

RACHEL MASON: Did he always wear a cowboy hat? GLORIA McNUTT: Hm-mm. Yes. RACHEL MASON: Being from San Antonio, I guess that would -- that would be logical.

KAREN BREWSTER: We have the map out. I don’t know, Gloria, if you can tell us -- Do you know where he would go hunting? Do you know the areas he would use? I have to put another tape in before we do that.

RACHEL MASON: Okay. Yeah, it would be interesting to know where he worked as opposed to where the other guide worked. TERRY STONE: He -- he hunted all the way to --