Dan Salmon and Randy Alvarez were interviewed on September 12, 2002 by Don Callaway and Bill Schneider in Igiugig, Alaska. In this interview, Dan and Randy talk about the use of snowmachines and All-Terrain Vehicles (ATV's) for local hunting and trapping activities and their impact on the land and resources. They discuss observations they have made in terms of changing climate and changes in wildlife populations and the effects these have had on hunting and access. Dan and Randy also talk about the use of traditional trails and hunting areas, and the vehicle regulations imposed by the National Park Service with the establishment of Katmai National Park and Preserve.
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Dan Salmon's background on coming to Igiugig and changes he has seen
Hunting areas, transportation and hunting effected by climate change
Winter trail use around Iliamna Lake and the impact of ATV's on the land and resources
Randy Alvarez's coming to the area and the trails he uses
Travel conditions and effects of weather changes on hunting
Managing ATV use and amount of visible impact
Travel and hunting use areas
Obtaining community input on ATV regulations
Types of transportation and hunting pressures
Change in animal populations and the effects on hunting
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MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: Today is September 12th, 2002. Don Calloway is here, Bill Schneider, too. And we have the pleasure of doing an interview with Dan Salmon. MR. DAN SALMON: Uh-hum. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: And Dan has been living here for, oh, a long time. Maybe you can tell us how you got here and how long you've been living here and then maybe we'll get to some of these resource issues. MR. DAN SALMON: All right. In '90 -- or 1981, I came up with the Alaska Department of Fish and Game working on a field camp here at the Igiugig Fish and Game station. Came back in '82 for another field season. Fall of '82, I ended up downriver approximately 15 miles. I winter watched a lodge down there with a friend of mine. Got involved in trapping and the Bush life, so to speak. And then ended up coming up that spring again to another field season in Igiugig where I met my now wife and got married in '85 and been here pretty much ever since. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: Okay. MR. DON CALLOWAY: And your wife's name is? MR. DAN SALMON: Julie Olympic Salmon. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Mary's daughter? MR. DAN SALMON: Correct. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: Okay. Well, have you seen some changes over the years? MR. DAN SALMON: Yes. Of course, the village has expanded and grown quite a bit infrastructurewise, but most notably in discussions with some of the elders here on the various, oh, weather patterns, Fish and Game and plant life changes we've seen, particularly over the last, oh, six to eight years, I would say. It just appears to confirm the suspicions and the discussions about global warming. Our summers seem hotter, dryer on the whole. I've seen substantial changes in the Lake Clark Pass, the glaciers melting up there, flying my airplane up there. The melt that goes on every year. I think that has led to some of the earlier cycles of the lake and the river peaking in depth earlier in the season, that quick runoff in the spring, coupled with the retreating of the glaciers supplying the lake has made the lake peak more into the August month, beginning of September, versus the end of September into October. That's kind of changed our barging season and whatnot. And I've noticed quite a bit of difference in the amount of brush growth and tree growth in the area. Area that used to be a lot more wide open, tundra now appear to be vegetating. Those are some of the quick observations. And the winters don't seem to be as difficult or as much snow as has been in the past. Two out of the last eight years we've had no barges able to make it up the Kvichak because of low water, years that we've had no snowfall to speak of. I've watched the lake freeze very late in years, late as late January, and one year didn't freeze over all the way at all. So those are some of the ones that come to mind. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: How has that affected transportation? You mention the barges. MR. DAN SALMON: Well, of course, if the barges don't make it, the alternative is flying. That gets quite a bit more expensive. We have short runways here that only allows specific-sized airplane to access, which is kind of inefficient for the bulk loads moving fuel and goods, so it's quite a bit more expensive. Of course, as far as locally here, for individuals, if you don't have the snow, of course, snow machines, of course, don't work, you have to go to other means. And if the lake doesn't freeze, of course, that really limits the amount of access you have to subsistence resources. This village was successful in getting the Board of Fish and Game to move the moose season a half a month later in the winter season because the early December we were finding we weren't getting freeze-ups like we did historically and we couldn't access moose by machines at all. So we changed the season later trying to get the ground frozen, the lakes and the creeks frozen so we could access some of our traditional areas for big game.
MR. DON CALLOWAY: What traditional areas would those be, again? MR. DAN SALMON: Well, the village, of course, uses extensively the area closest to your -- your community is the most efficient. If you're in a subsistence resource gathering. We have a lot of the area between the -- what we call the hills behind the village, both sides leading towards the Kukaklek area and in between the village. We use up the lake up to Grant's Lagoon, the bluff area, downriver to Kaskanak, the bottom of the flats, Pecks Creek, Oly Creek, those areas are, of course, all used extensively. Many travel down to the Branch using the river in the summer and the over-winter trails during the winter and access the areas in the forks of the Branch River where it goes to Nonvianuk and Kukaklek. Big Mountain area's used very heavily, especially in the wintertime, fall time moose, et cetera. MR. DON CALLOWAY: There's not much caribou around now, is there? MR. DAN SALMON: The season, last February and March there were a significant population of caribou on our side of the Big Mountain. Not on the mountain itself, more into below the runway back to the village. Yeah, we had a lot of hunting activity here, Soldotna, Kenai, Anchorage, a lot of that same-day aerial hunting of caribou, ourselves included on snow machines and four-wheelers. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Now, could I back up and ask a quick question? Do you think with the rise in the level of the lake, that the antebudget (phonetic) of the lake has changed that gets more heat earlier on that may affect weather patterns such as snow? Has anybody looked into that, do you know? MR. DAN SALMON: I don't know if that's been researched, but we're, I think historically, a degree or two difference in a temperature here, which is the difference between rain and snow. Kokhanok, gets large quantities of snow. It breaks right at Igiugig, making the first -- we call it the Banana Belt down here -- the first 7 to 8 miles access out of the village extremely barren and difficult to get around. So different modes of transportation are used probably more now than have been any time, you know, in the past and increase just because of the problems of getting to historical areas. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Could you talk a little bit about the strategy for accessing historical areas in the last 10 years, how that varies with, you know, climate fluctuations, et cetera. MR. DAN SALMON: Well, in periods of no freeze-up, of course, it's real difficult. Some of us have used our airplanes to move people to different spots in times before it's frozen. If there's no snow and the ground's frozen, then it's strictly four-wheeler access. And I would say the four-wheeler is probably useful in this region now 11 months plus out of the year. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Uh-hum. MR. DAN SALMON: Before, years ago, I think historically it would have been only probably like 8 months a year. If anybody comes, school teachers here now, and they have got to buy one vehicle, that's what we tell them to get. It gives you the most options to get the most places the most amount of time in a given year. Of course, the machinery itself is getting more advanced and technologically conducive to getting places where they couldn't before, but primarily the factor here is a function of no snow and difficulty using snow machines, or in the old days dog teams, it's bare ground here now. And it really eats up snow machines trying to get to an area where there's not even any snow. MR. DON CALLOWAY: That's that little umbrella of 7 miles you talked about? MR. DAN SALMON: Yeah. Typically once you get to the other side of the hills there by January, you've got snow. That early moose hunt is a lot of it, I would say the majority of it is done by four-wheeler because it's just we haven't got the snow by then. And that's really the only -- that's the most dependable means, I would say, to bring home -- home the meat. MR. DON CALLOWAY: How about in the summer, access towards the Kukaklek by four-wheeler? MR. DAN SALMON: I would say that's not used. Pecks Creek is a substantial barrier and the swamps involved to get there. So to my knowledge, I haven't seen a four-wheeler up there in the summertime. I would hunt with a four-wheeler right up to Pecks Creek, but I have not myself crossed it in the summertime. MR. DON CALLOWAY: So it would be unusual for anyone coming and going to access Kukaklek or the -- cross the boundary in the summer on a four-wheeler just simply because getting there is so difficult? MR. DAN SALMON: To my knowledge, since I've lived here, nobody's ever done that.
MR. DON CALLOWAY: How about in the winter? You mentioned the strategies if it's froze up. How far would you go on a four-wheeler in the winter? MR. DAN SALMON: I've been on a four-wheeler right across the Kukaklek Lake up into the -- what we call Little Kukaklek, a river. I believe you've got it listed as Nunuktuk. We call that, some of us call Little Kukaklek. Or Little Ku. And I've been all the way up through there, along the side of those hills down to heading east to the entrance of -- of the Narrow Cove that you have got listed to around the rim of the lake, the Funnel Moraine Creek, and back to the winter trail and home, and including the outlet, and then cross the outlet on them. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Could I ask you to draw in double black dotted lines just what you described. MR. DAN SALMON: Double black, two lines? MR. DON CALLOWAY: Yeah. Two little dotted lines. MR. DAN SALMON: I'll pick it up off of Mary's trail because this is the same way I access it. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Okay. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: So you're actually going around the southern -- MR. DAN SALMON: Shore. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: Shore. MR. DAN SALMON: And sometimes you're down on the lake, just depends on what the terrain is. Sometimes you bop back up on the bank. Depends how tight the gravel is to the beach. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Now, the lake itself freezes, that's good transportation corridor when it froze? MR. DAN SALMON: Oh, yeah. And that freezes before Iliamna Lake. It's a higher elevation, so that one it's froze quite a bit earlier and stays frozen quite a bit later. Again, you know, we may come straight across the lake. It just depends on where you want to go. If the caribou are on the other side of the lake, rather than going around the rim if it's froze substantial, we'll just cut right across the middle and get there. Otherwise, kind of following a range of these hills. I've been all over these hunting caribou. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: Those are the hills on the north side, I think? MR. DAN SALMON: Correct. And almost invariably, I would go home Rocky Point. I have one time on a -- that would have been a snow machine, so it's irrelevant. I cut up to Big Mountain. MR. DON CALLOWAY: So you cut into here coming back, and then followed this out? MR. DAN SALMON: Correct. And I've beaten through the bush, not with a four-wheeler though. I've never done this trail here with a four-wheeler. I've been on this one many times. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: The trails to the west? MR. DAN SALMON: Right. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Okay. So you come in this way too. MR. DAN SALMON: Yep. You come up the -- up the edge of the lake. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: Up to Rocky Point. MR. DAN SALMON: And if the lake's not frozen, there's a -- there's a trail that follows off this green one here. You can come inland. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Okay. MR. DAN SALMON: But that's where I was moose hunting here last week. I went -- I followed that trail up back to Pecks Creek. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Okay. MR. DAN SALMON: And you know, I've hunted kind of this range, this up along here, here. This is the kind of the pattern we go. But we drive up in here. It just depends on what -- what the game's doing. This is all easy riding up here. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: On the southern slope of the Kukaklek? MR. DAN SALMON: Right. As well as up here. This is the east. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: North slope. MR. DAN SALMON: Really good ride. Yeah. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Yeah, yeah. Kokhanok. People mention that. Fairly -- fairly flat and firm. MR. DAN SALMON: Yeah. I've been -- I've been up Funnel. Have you got Funnel Lake here? Yeah, Funnel Creek. Yeah, I've been all up in here. Right to the Point. I don't know if you want me to just, you know, realize we're not just making a loop like that, we're ranging around. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Sure. MR. DAN SALMON: These hills here. But that's the general flow of traffic. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Could you comment on the impact of the technology on the terrain? MR. DAN SALMON: My personal observation because, you know, I have a natural resource background and degree from the University of Fairbanks, and of course, I'm concerned with resource impacts and what we're doing. And I've flown my airplane substantially in that area. I'm Igiugig land use officer. I watch their lands very closely, of course. I'm at the Kukaklek area frequently. And I've flown the edge of that lake many, many, many times, and my personal observation is there has been no impact by any form of motorized technology that I can see other than the trail from Rocky Point directly back to what I call Mary's cabin. From there, typically, once you've reached -- you've beaten through the timber, the other side of the timber line into the barren hills, traffic splays out in all directions to pursue the different, oh, activities people are going for. Caribou. I've done a lot of ptarmigan hunting. They school up there in the wintertime, in the early spring, thousands of them. So I go up there, taking my kids up there ptarmigan hunting. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Would you show me the splayed-out area that you just mentioned. MR. DAN SALMON: Well, it kind of encompasses that circle. I would say it breaks off this way, and this way. The tops of these ridges, everybody's all at the top of these and down the sides. This is where we were ptarmigan hunting all last year. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: We're looking at the north side of the border, the boundary of the Park. MR. DAN SALMON: I would say all the way up in here, too. These trails -- actually, I can identify Mary's cabin. It's -- it's just there's no particular trail. Everybody is just -- they are very easy going, you just pick a route and go. If the lake's frozen, I'll head straight -- you know, get out to the flat land of the lake and look back to the hills and see glass or get on top of that steep ridge to the -- to the southwest and view the whole area to see if any game can be seen. And then pursue it accordingly. MR. DON CALLOWAY: So in this splayed-out area that you're talking about here, because the ground's frozen and/or because of the particular geography of it, there's very little impact from this technology; is that what you're saying? MR. DAN SALMON: Yes. The only trails that I can see are those that have been developed by caribou migrations over the past years. I've seen no evidence of three or four-wheeler or snow machine damage to any of that property up there. There's a lot of gravel that you're on when it's barren frozen. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Uh-hum. MR. DAN SALMON: Of course, the ponds are the easiest to drive on, and the water bodies, if they are frozen, they are real fast to travel across, so people generally kind of aim for those areas, you know, get on and move accordingly. So again, the only -- the only trails I can see firmly embedded in that tundra are caribou -- caribou migrations. MR. DON CALLOWAY: And -- and the only ones that seem to be impacted by the motorized are -- are the dog trails that lead up to almost the boundary right here with the Preserve; is that correct? MR. DAN SALMON: Correct. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Okay. How about can you give me some sense of how many times you may utilize access to the Kukaklek region in the winter? MR. DAN SALMON: Oh, depending on the season and what's back there, some seasons I haven't been there at all, and other seasons, I don't know, a dozen times, maybe more. It depends. MR. DON CALLOWAY: What does it depend on? MR. DAN SALMON: Just the travelling conditions, the weather, the time of the year that it's frozen. Of course, if it's nice in the spring and days are longer, you can spend more time up there before dark and get home. Or I've holed up in the pass in some of the -- those cabins up in that area. The one down on Nonvianuk Lake, the one at Mary's allotment, stayed there in that cabin. Stayed up at a shelter there at Battle Lake one time in a snowstorm. So I've been -- generally try to get home, if I can. MR. DON CALLOWAY: So generally your --
MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: Okay. We have been joined by Randy Alvarez, and Randy, I really appreciate you taking the time. I know you just flew up from south Naknek was it? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Naknek. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: And your time here is short, but you're a user of this area and so it's really helpful to get your input. A lot of people have mentioned your help on this. And what we have been -- Dan has been filling us in on some of the -- some of the variables that influence all-terrain vehicle use up into -- out of Igiugig and up into the Park area. And I guess maybe we could have a conversation with both of you as to what you think some of the variables are that influences, what -- what leads you to use four-wheelers up in this country? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Well, when I came here, I've been living here since 1983, but I've been up here before that. I think it must have been -- first time I came up here it was about '68. And, you know, a little bit more and more, and then I moved up here in '83. But I -- the first snow machine -- first three-wheeler I drove up here was Hermie Herman had. And I think it was about 1970, Eddie Clark and I, his dad had a lodge right across the Kvichak, lodge across the river over there and we used to come up here in the fall time and drive this Hermie's -- borrow Hermie's three-wheelers and drive them around, looking for caribou and stuff. And then -- I didn't have to move up there because I had my own, but we drive up most of the time was in the wintertime up to the Preserve area when there was no -- no snow for a snow machine, we would come up -- we would go up there and drive around with -- up to that area, up to here with -- MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: The three-wheeler? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: The three-wheelers, and then come down this way on the ridge. You know, just looking around. And me and George Wilson. And but most -- you know, it all depends on the conditions, what sort of snow we have. Most of the time there was snow so we would use snow machine but then we would go a lot farther because it's a lot easier to go on a snow machine than a three-wheeler, faster. Cover more ground so you have got more time to get home. Up there and back. Basically, I don't know, you guys got any questions? MR. DON CALLOWAY: Yeah, I have a number of questions. So in your early '70s, you take a three-wheeler. And could you show us on the map here what kind of route you would use out of Igiugig to get up there. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Most of the time we came up -- MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: North trail? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Yeah. It's a better trail than this one here. It's well established. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: So we're looking at the Rocky Point trail as opposed to the one -- MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: There's a well-established trail here, then this one here, but once you get up here, it just -- everybody goes every which way, so it kind of peters out. There's no real trail. It goes down to the lake, you know, you can see trails that go down to the lake. But everybody's kind of just once they get up on into the timber and stuff down here, they kind of go wherever they want to go, so there's no well-established trail from there out. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Would you have a trailer with this three-wheeler or just the three-wheeler itself? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Most of the time no, no trailer. It's -- unless you had -- unless you got something and had to haul it back, and then you brought a trailer back with you. MR. DON CALLOWAY: How tough was it on a three-wheeler to get there? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: All depends. The trail was pretty good. You know, this -- this one here. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Uh-hum. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: But you can get up the trail and it gets pretty slow. At Gabby, his wife's uncle used to -- he used to go all over the place. He would be up there for days on his -- on his ATV. You could see his tracks. It goes over the snow, he had a snow machine, he would be -- he would be so far away he must have been up there for days travelling around. And he doesn't -- yeah, he lives in Kokhanok now. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Gabby does? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Yeah, Gabby Gregory. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Yeah, we interviewed him. How about any difference with the introduction of four-wheelers when you get your first four-wheeler? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: I got my first four-wheeler when they outlawed -- they quit making three-wheelers. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: '85. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Yeah, and I didn't really like a four-wheeler, but I think I like a four-wheeler better now than I liked a three-wheeler back then. Just, you know, once people have a -- get used to something, they don't like to change, and I didn't think a four-wheeler would be better, but I think it's better.
MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: What's better about it? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: You can haul more. You get better control. And you don't flip over easy. You can go -- because you've got four-wheel drive instead of two-wheel drive. And it goes through the snow better because you're only leaving two sets of tracks instead of three sets of tracks. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Uh-hum. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: What about for both of you, what about travel conditions? Can you tell us before freeze-up what are the -- what are the bad spots in terms of travel conditions, and then we'll talk about after freeze-up. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Going, getting across the creek, Pecks Creek. That's the spot. You know, they were talking about putting a bridge in, but you know, it's kind of in the planning stages. Development or whatever. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Would you access with the three-wheeler in the summer or in Kukaklek or just after freeze-up? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: If you wanted to go up there in the summertime, that would be -- unless you flew, that would be the only way you would go up there now. I suppose. If -- MR. DAN SALMON: I've never seen one up there in the summer. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: If you had a bridge, you could get up there from here. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Would anyone cut trees to create bridges, temporary bridges to cross some of the creeks? MR. DAN SALMON: I think you're stuck or you've got -- if it's frozen, before it's frozen all the way and you get to a spot that's not -- you know, it's good, but up to a little short spot, yeah, I mean, we've all done trail improvisation to get through, but's not -- that area is not used too much by ATV unless it's frozen. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Randy, what would you be looking for when you go up there especially running around with your three-wheelers, what kind of game would you be interested in? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Oh, caribou. And once in awhile moose. Go up there looking for moose in December. If there's no snow, we'll drive up, up here in this area here and down here. But mostly caribou. You know, caribou are all around up there. Especially right in there. And that's mostly snow machine when we go up in there. MR. DAN SALMON: And that's subsistence resources. What other resources -- you know, I know you've accessed other furbearers up in that area, as well. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Yeah, I've -- MR. DAN SALMON: You've used it extensively for that. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: I trapped up there, too. Quite a bit around the lake. But beings as the price has been pretty poor, I've been -- and fishing has been pretty poor, so I've been working. I've been gone the last couple of years working most of the time. I don't get a chance to trap as much as I used to. And the price is so poor now. You know. MR. DON CALLOWAY: So the depression in the commercial fisheries and the depression in fur prices has forced you to go into wage work, and -- MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: And I don't spend as much time here as I used to, you know. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Would you prefer to be here in the community engaging in these -- MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Oh, yeah, I would rather take off than leave the wife and kids at home. You know. And I work construction, so I'm gone away from home quite a bit at a time. MR. DON CALLOWAY: How old are your children? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: 11 and 13. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: One of the things we've been talking about with people is the influence of weather. Have you noticed over the times you've been coming up here changes in weather? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Yeah. It's not as cold as it used to be. And when I grew up, when I was growing up in grade school, we used to have lots of snow and then the snow went away. That's -- in the lakes, some reason it started going away. And in the '80s and '90s, it didn't seem we had much snow most of the time. That's why we started using ATVs to run up there. Because there was the snow conditions, it was still -- it was froze, but there was no snow. Now, we're starting to get a little bit of snow again, so it's starting to -- maybe the -- maybe the snow is coming back. You know. But... MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: You've noticed snow coming back for how long? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Oh, last couple of years it seems like there's been more snow than the few years before that. We had some years where there was hardly any snow at all until late, until -- until springtime. MR. DAN SALMON: February. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Yeah. And by then it's too late to do anything with a snow machine. That's why everybody was travelling around with the ATVs. MR. DAN SALMON: Of course, the way the seasons are regimented by start and stop dates, they don't account for the variables in the weather and the access. So I told them how Randy's the chairman of the Fish and Game advisory committee for our area here, we were successful in getting that '90 moose hunt moved back a little bit later so we could kind of get -- make it easier. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Because of the weather. We were having problems with freeze-up, and freeze-up was -- sometimes we didn't have it until the middle of December, and by then you have to -- the moose season is half over with. So we got the Board of Game to move our winter moose season back two weeks, so it was in the last half of December and the first half of January. So it makes it easier. MR. DON CALLOWAY: So are you a representative of the Fish and Game advisory of the state or the Regional Advisory Council? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: The state. MR. DON CALLOWAY: So you're talking about all the state lands now. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Yeah. MR. DAN SALMON: He's -- he's the rep for the Iliamna Lake area to the -- to the -- you're not on the state board, you're on the -- MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: I'm just a member. MR. DAN SALMON: Local advisory member. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Local advisory. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: You know, I represent the villages who are on the lake here, 8 villages around the lake, up in Lake Clark. And you know, try to, yeah.
MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: What would -- this is to both of you -- what would be your management suggestion to the Park Service about all-terrain vehicle use? MR. DAN SALMON: For -- for our village's use of it, personally, I think it would be a seasonal use from, say, December 1st to April 1st. And make it a village -- much the same way as you've got some of these systems set up in seems like Lake Clark Park, we -- certain communities are allowed to do certain activities, just residents resided in the community are allowed to do that. I think it shows historical use. It's minimal. This is a small community. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Yeah. MR. DAN SALMON: We don't go up there that often, and if the weather conditions are right, we don't use them at all up there. But when it is needed, the weather conditions are -- dictate what type of technology is usable, and that's it. I think they should be allowed to use it. One way or another, I think they are going to anyway. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Well, how would you account for people in Kokhanok that maybe accessed it earlier? MR. DAN SALMON: Maybe -- maybe -- MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Well, they are under a little bit different situation because they can access it earlier because they don't have this creek down here to go across. But you know, if -- if the Park Service were to say that the people in Igiugig cannot go up there with ATVs, and under the situation right now where -- where the regulations say that for even going into the Park and Preserve for the snow machine, you need at least six inches of snow, and the way that's up there so wind blown is hardly ever six inches of snow on there. So it would be illegal most of the time for us to go up there, even in the wintertime. MR. DON CALLOWAY: It's a Catch-22. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: So, you know -- MR. DAN SALMON: Even with a dog team. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: And the ATV use is pretty minimal from Igiugig for people using the Park and the Preserve. But it still, if it has a historic use, it's policy. Very -- being very small with ATV, but snow machine not necessarily, it -- you know, most people use -- utilizing snow machines up there even if there's only a little bit of snow. But under the regulations right now for the Park Service, they say we need six inches of snow to drive on. Well, that -- you know, it's blows -- it's pretty well wind blown up there most of the time and -- and a lot of times when we -- it's six inches or maybe more than that down here where the trees are because it's -- it's not blown off, but you go up on the lake area and around the lake, and it gets pretty sparse some places and it would be -- it would -- if they pass that, it would be illegal for us to go up there most of the time. MR. DAN SALMON: I told him, I -- all the flying I've done in my airplane up there, I do not see the evidence around this lake of the snow machine use and three-wheeler, in fact. But do I see a substantial caribou trails and whatnot. I -- I think you would be awful hard pressed to show any identified use by this community or Kokhanok, heavy -- either type of technology use in that Park. Kokhanok's got -- they are at a higher elevation, their land is dryer, not at low land as us, so for their three and four-wheeler access, snow machine, is a longer period of time. If they needed longer months for their particular use of it, I would probably defer to their area. I'm just trying to come up with what's realistic for use by Igiugig people here. And I think that's pretty accurate. I wasn't aware that they were -- the six inches or less rule was being considered because like Randy -- MR. DON CALLOWAY: (Inaudible.) MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Well, that's what I was told by the Park Service that you need at least six inches of snow to drive in the Park, otherwise you could be damaging the tundra. MR. DAN SALMON: I hope that's the Monument they are talking about and not extending that regulation in the Preserve because we use that heavily in snow machine use. And like Randy says, sometimes, you know, you're driving across bare -- bare gravel. Which stretches -- MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: (Inaudible.) MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: On top of those hills, you know, on top of those knolls and stuff, there's rocks and stuff so you've got to kind of pick your way. You don't like to drive on rocks and stuff because it's kind of hard on your equipment, but... MR. DAN SALMON: Any prudent machine owner is going for the snow because that's, like you said, a lot easier on your equipment. MR. DON CALLOWAY: And so the balance is, if I understand what you're saying, is that if the snow starts to come back with respect to earlier in the year and a little better depths, you switch from ATVs to snow machines because you go farther and more -- MR. DAN SALMON: And faster. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: You can't get up there with ATV because there's so much snow anyway. And but there's no snow, there isn't even enough snow to lubricate your slides on your snow machine. And you're driving up there, you know, as far as you can in one day and do some hunting and come back. MR. DAN SALMON: And most of the machines are liquid cooled now so they don't -- the engines overheat, as well. You know, so. I mean the slides are one consideration, but most snow machines now are liquid cooled, and that's another issue is trying to keep them cool enough to drive.
MR. DON CALLOWAY: When Randy came in, you were ready to start talking, Dan, and Randy, this is to you, too -- about your traditional use, when there is enough use with snow machines, where you go and that kind of stuff. Could you expand on that a little. MR. DAN SALMON: Well, Randy, of course, uses it even more than myself for different activities, trapping or a lot more than I have, but I've used all the way around the lake and probably, oh, a seven mile band of, you know, around the lake over the hills and dales in pursuit of caribou or wolverines or whatever else we see up there. I've been up the Funnel Moraine Creek area, I've been up to Battle Lake, almost to the top of the pass there with a snow machine. Then down along the -- oh, it would be the south, southeast shore of Kukaklek all the way to the outlet, dropped down into Nonvianuk, stayed out of the Monument area there, stayed in the Preserve pretty much for any activities on the lake, quite a bit along the edge, and back up that trail that Mary had identified as an old dog team trail, back up to the outlet of Kukaklek and home. Outside of the Preserve extensively around the Big Mountain area. Reindeer Lake area that's listed on your map. Holy Creek, Pecks Creek, and all the hills in between. MR. DON CALLOWAY: What about you, Randy? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: I've been -- I've been over there, all over there, too. And even in the Monument -- well, it was -- I used to trap over out in Nonvianuk, but that was even before Monument was there. I trapped in American Creek, which is down here towards Grovner, and before -- when that was -- wasn't even in the -- the Monument. It was outside of the Monument, but then they moved it, and now you can't trap in there anymore. And I trapped with Richard Wilson, my cousin, we stayed at Hammersly's cabin at the mouth of the lake and trapped around Nonvianuk in '78. MR. DAN SALMON: And the forks. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: And the forks down there, and traveled all over here and came out over here and didn't have enough gas, but we could see the water over here before. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Could see the end, huh? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Yeah, and then. And all -- just all over. But -- MR. DON CALLOWAY: Do you normally pull a sled with some additional fuel? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Yeah, I always -- when I -- especially when I go by myself, I take everything. If I break down, that way if I have to spend a couple of days, if people are looking for me, I can have everything I need. Because it's too far away to walk home. MR. DAN SALMON: A lot of us have staged fuel for airplanes, too, different spots back there, leave them behind with a sled, in case figuring you'll be back that way. MR. DON CALLOWAY: And on these multi-day trips, do you try to stay in cabins or take a tent with you? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Yeah, I usually try to stay at cabins. It's a lot nicer. You know, there's cabins here and there. And I -- yeah. I don't usually -- you know, there's a cabin here. My cousin's got a cabin here. This cabin at the mouth of the Nonvianuk Lake there, but I'm sure it's falling down. It's been there. Mouth, another cabin down here. And then I stayed in a recreation cabin at American Creek, but that's since been torn down by the Park Service. And we stayed at Gauppy's cabin here. Down in here. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Which cabin was torn down by the Park Service? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: The one down here, over here in American Creek. It's in the Monument now, but back when we -- I stayed there, it was still -- it was out of the Monument. It -- since then they expanded the Park over to this boundary right here, which runs around Nonvianuk and then comes out over someplace over here. MR. DAN SALMON: I think that's been a real confusion for people in these villages, from what I understand, I've got a chance to know a lot of people is back when the traditional access was use the land for whatever you need it for, for subsistence or trapping and whatnot, everybody went wherever they wanted. And then the federal government, trying to Preserve these areas and save them for future generations, expanded these boundaries and probably went through a public process by which they solicited opinions and information from everybody, but realistically, many of the elders that they would with been approaching at that point had between a third grade, fifth grade or less education, rarely had the opportunity to read a notice that's out there to comment on these things, much less read about what's generated in a draft, in a proposal before it's adopted. And subsequently, I think that they have been left out of this process as this Preserve and Monument has grown outwards. And then they'll get confused or upset when all of a sudden are told, well, you can't do that now, you did that back in such and such a year. They didn't think of it in those terms because they didn't understand it or even aware of it going on back when these changes happened. So it leads to animosity probably towards different agencies that they feel all of a sudden they are starting to enforce these things, but really have been on the books for maybe 10, 15 or longer years, but a lot of these people didn't have the education to read English. Many of them, English wasn't their first language. And so there's a -- MR. DON CALLOWAY: Has there been an increase in enforcement activity in Igiugig, Kokhanok area? MR. DAN SALMON: Kokhanok, for sure. I know they have been -- people have been shagged a few times out on three and four-wheelers out in the Preserve area there. In the fall time, yeah. MR. DON CALLOWAY: By the Park Service? MR. DAN SALMON: Whatever. I just -- ourselves, you know, my -- you see them coming, get going type of attitude, don't hang around and wait. You know, these issues Randy's talking about, the six inches of snow, I think there will be a lot more of that. Just don't stop and visit, move on, because people will traditionally still use that area. Wind blown, deep or not. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Yeah, I'll have to look into that. I wasn't aware of that. I can understand the NPS thinking that, you know, that in other parks, there are certain areas that if you have that much cushion, you're guaranteed there's no impact, but we're not talking tundra vegetation in Alaska in this windswept places here, you're talking gravel and -- MR. DAN SALMON: Yeah. Gravel and -- MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Well, very real thin tundra.
MR. DAN SALMON: Those guys came from Aleknagik to Igiugig hunting caribou. MR. DON CALLOWAY: They were so thin over on the west side? MR. DAN SALMON: Yeah. That's a long ways to come for a day's shoot, your limit of caribou and turn around, put them on the sled and go home. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: They put about 250 miles on. By the time they -- when they got home -- they left home at eight o'clock in the morning, got home at three o'clock in the morning, so they were gone almost around 20 hours. MR. DON CALLOWAY: And these were on snow machines and sleds, pulling sleds? MR. DAN SALMON: Yeah, from Aleknagig. MR. DON CALLOWAY: And that's because the snow depth is so bad over there that -- MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: No, there was no caribou over there. They came over here for caribou. MR. DAN SALMON: And so that gets back to all of Bristol Bay people are going to go to get what they need where they are at. And if today they are right in the village, well, we are not going to go back there in pursuit of them. If tomorrow they are back up in Battle Lake, that's where we're going to go get them. MR. DON CALLOWAY: You talked about a process here in turning a stash on line and all that kind of stuff, but what about process in terms of the issue we are engaged in here, how do you think it should best be handled? I know there's a proposal in front of the Regional Advisory Council, but you know, you've got multiple agencies, state, federal, all that kind of stuff. Do you think taking this report, what should the superintendent do after they get -- she gets the draft of these reports? Work through the RAC, or come to the community? What's your advice? MR. DAN SALMON: I think the RAC has only a certain degree of participation. I know it's more expensive to go to the communities. But I think at least a hearing should be held in each community to allow the input from all different age groups, user groups, people from all incomes that have a chance to -- to hear and to comment. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Any proposed policy? MR. DAN SALMON: Correct. Correct. Unfortunately, those that can afford to fly, Randy volunteers his plane off and I do mine to go to functions just so that we can put into some type of perspective. An elder person, my mother-in-law, looks at it in a much different perspective. And the needs. So to get as much as you can, I think it behooves the Park Service and federal and state agencies for that matter to get together at the areas where they are mostly impacted. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: You know, the RAC was probably -- I'm favorable about it, but it's the Park Service that probably has the ultimate say because they control the land. And you know, if -- if they would just present it to the RAC and in -- in a favorable -- if -- if they agreed to have -- to let the people of Igiugig utilize that area with ATVs, I'm sure that the RAC would not object to it. But if the RAC agreed and -- or who was it, reversed and the RAC hadn't brought this to the Park Service, you know, it's -- I'm sure that would not -- you know, that's a different situation. So ultimately, I think it's up to the Park Service. So they have to probably take -- be the steering committee, and I don't -- you know, to go over this. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Yeah, but I guess what I was getting at, and I think what Dan answered for me, was in terms of trying to get feedback about a proposed rule or a proposed policy rather than just work through the RAC which are representatives of the large area, that you prefer the superintendent to have some time in the community to get local community input. MR. DAN SALMON: Oh, you bet, because I can tell you numerous problems on just land rules, regulations, maps that have been formed in this Park in the last 15, 20 years that have been mistakes made by the Park Service on land ownership. Uses of the lands that were put on the federal record that were documents that were distributed to businesses and whatnot that impacted this community. They said they had to do retractions, many, many misinformations that could have been avoided had they come to the community and said, here's what we're about to pass out to, you know, the public, is this right, do we have any comments on it. We could have told them, hey, your map's wrong. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: Just a clarification, RAC means Regional Advisory Council? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Yeah. RAC is the federal subsistence committee. MR. DAN SALMON: The first time they did a draft of the -- a draft plan back, I believe, in the early '80s for the use of that Preserve up there, they never even contacted the community. And then I read the three options, and one of them was here's what we'll allow happen at the outlet of Kukaklek. You know. They didn't even own the property. Historically they have made, you know, significant mistakes on management back there and have left the community out of it at all. And I see this is a good attempt right here to change that process and do something that's a little more fair and all inclusive of the people. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Yeah. And I think that -- and I hope it's understood that the process that Bill and I are going through is kind of a fact gathering, to make sure that the local community perspective is represented in the initial draft documents, you know, the rules and policies, is a whole different process. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: But the other -- the other aspect of this is that this record is public now, so that you can use it as well as anyone else. MR. DAN SALMON: Right. Right. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Right. And it really is. A quick question, Randy. You said your family's originally from Levelock and so forth. Is there much use, just to your knowledge, by -- the Levelock in any of the Park or Preserve or Monument areas? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Yeah. They utilize it -- they go up that way into from up Branch River, which comes in, you know, runs into these here. But they also come up to Igiugig, you know. They're -- they're -- some of the people from Levelock used to live here in Igiugig a long time ago, and they used to utilize this area a lot. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Do they use ATVs in the utilization coming up the Branch and, you know -- MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: You know, I don't -- I know they used to travel a long time ago with dog teams, but I'm not sure what their use -- what their historic use of ATVs is on coming up that far. I know, you know, they do drive up here in the wintertime, and -- but the Branch is most -- most it's -- you don't want to drive -- you don't want to drive on that river when it's froze. It's -- it's dangerous. MR. DAN SALMON: You've also got the narrows to contend with up there in the Kukaklek area. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Down in the lower there it's fine, but you get up to that upper end where the water's real swift there, the rapids, and it's not good traveling. Where was I? MR. DON CALLOWAY: The reason I asked this was again, my supposition is you probably would need to go through the process with Kokhanok and Igiugig and Levelock, and I just wanted to check that out and get your experience on the topic. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: I -- I don't -- they haven't said anything about it. I'm sure -- they know about this situation with Levelock -- I mean Kokhanok, and Igiugig, but they haven't said anything about it so I'm not sure if they had any plans on it. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Well, we can learn that, too.
MR. DON CALLOWAY: Are there any other questions you might have of us or comments you would like to make on this issue? MR. DAN SALMON: You know, I think it's pretty straightforward. For myself, it's -- I just hope they understand that the majority of our use of that area is to get subsistence activities, feed the houses, and of course, with the elders in the village, it's their traditional food. They -- they didn't come home homesick from the city looking to -- just a lot of it because they missed the food here. The traditional food. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: And one other thing I would like to mention, too, if you go to the village like Kokhanok, most people have ATVs. But not everybody has a snow machine. So you know, they do, if they have to, they will drive their ATV up to the Park and Preserve, you know, because that's all they have. For transportation MR RANDY ALVAREZ: There's not many dog teams around anymore, you know, so -- MR DON CALLOWAY: Yeah, no, it's made pretty clear to us we're not walking, we're not packing it out anymore. MR DAN SALMON: It's just not practical. MR DON CALLOWAY: Yeah. Do you have any understanding of what -- how ANILCA effects the different land status' here. We're talking the preserve here. Is the preserve additions, even though Katmai is an old hard park, the preserve additions are under ANILCA, is that -- am I correct on that? MR DAN SALMON: I believe so, correct. MR DON CALLOWAY: So Title 8 does apply to the preserve additions for Igiugig and Kokhanok. MR RANDY ALVAREZ: Yeah, probably because the preserve was, I believe, came in after ANILCA, I believe so, wasn't that true? MR DON CALLOWAY: I don't know MR DAN SALMON: They extended the boundary in about '80 , '81 somewhere in there. MR DON CALLOWAY: So a year or two after. MR DAN SALMON: And everybody, from what I can tell is real cognizant of the monument. You stay out of there, that's.. MR RANDY ALVAREZ: Yeah, nobody likes to go into the monument because you can't hunt or trap in there. You can't, you know, you can pick berries and fish but winter time, there's not very much of that being done, so MR DON CALLOWAY: Not too many berries MR RANDY ALVAREZ: But the preserve is a different story. MR DON CALLOWAY: How about one more general topic, if I can talk to you guys about it, and that's hunting pressures from outside agencies. And by the agents I mean, have you noticed in your tenure in the community, changes in the distance you have to travel, you know as increased competition. MR DAN SALMON: Oh, without question, the laws they got now, when they went from the guide program to the outfitter, it massively has increased. You've got a large aerial assault centered out of the Kenai, Homer, Iliamna MR RANDY ALVAREZ: Soldotna MR DAN SALMON: King Salmon, Soldotna, advertising drop-off hunts and that's major, major has changed in the last fifteen years. I've seen lakes where they'll be five camps on one lake where nobody in the past would have even thought of putting in another camp at all, if someone was there fist. Right up in the preserve, that was last year, I saw that activity flying over checking Iguigig Corporation lands and the surrounding area during moose season. There's a small band of bulls that hangs this upper preserve area here, up in the funnel moraine, up in the mountains back here MR RANDY ALVAREZ: Caribou MR DAN SALMON: And they're typically pretty good-sized bulls. They've got a reputation as being nice bulls, and I hear many of the outfitters talking about "Hey have you seen the 50 or 90 bulls or so, that are up in the Kukaklec area?" I've heard the Fish and Game advisory committee out of Anchorage that that's the herd that they key on because of their size. And I'm curious to see if their not actually a -- since they do seem to stay there as a resident population rather than mix with the Mulchatna herd and move off, if maybe they haven't had some influence from the old reindeer herding days, that made them a little bit more sedentary into this area. But, if that is a biological strain that's typically a larger bull, they are from what I've seen, typically nice bulls, larger racks. It's a shame to see those hunted out of existence by the increase of drop-off hunts. And airplanes are the same as snow machines; bigger tires, wing modifications, etc. have allowed them to get to places that they couldn't get 20 years ago. MR DON CALLOWAY: Where is the outfitter activity in the preserve there? So they drop them off anywhere? MR RANDY ALVAREZ: Anywhere up along Moraine Creek up here and around this area, you know, that's kind of, it's -- those hills are pretty hard and sand, gravel. There's not much tundra in most of those. Most of those -- there's a lot of spots where you can land on, big tires. MR DON CALLOWAY: So do they fly 206 or something in there? MR RANDY ALVAREZ: Cubs, mostly MR DAN SALMON: Cubs, there's a large increase, of course, in tourism, on Moraine Creek and Little Kukaklec. Heck, Moraine Creek now, is -- they almost need an air traffic controller. MR DON CALLOWAY: And that's tourist traffic or outfitter? MR RANDY ALVAREZ: Mostly sport fishermen MR DAN SALMON: Sport fishermen MR DON CALLOWAY: And what are they going after there? Rainbows? MR DAN SALMON: Rainbow trout, right. I believe Fish and Game is looking at some type of -- and/or the Park Service policy on the use there. MR DON CALLOWAY: The Park Service, as I understand it and, you know I'm not really in a regulatory realm, but as I understand it, have some control over outfitters because they permit them. And so maybe that's something you'd want to bring up with respect to, you know, issues to discuss with the superintendent or your representatives, because I've heard from people that the increased competition often forces local committees to go further in search of resources simply because they've been hunted out or moved out. MR DAN SALMON: Well our area has substantially decreased in the moose population, right now. We --we're hoping to see maybe a Tier 2 option taken. We lost historical moose cow season we had for years, the December hunt, they changed that to a bull only. You had a guide out of Homer start offering guided hunts, drop-offs out of Homer commercially, because they could just find the big racks and set down on them. He got a couple -- he got 8 one record class bull and now is all is he does is drops people off on large bulls. Typically the villagers aren't after a Bull Moose in December, they'd prefer a cow, they have the fat content. MR DON CALLOWAY: Yeah MR DAN SALMON: So after we lost the cow season, which we've maintained every year, is we need to bring back and it -- now it's the bulls that have decreased. The recruitment of the cows is really poor, the survival of the calf, the amount of bulls have decreased. The Fish and Game biologist out of King Salmon concurs that the population is down. We are definitely going a lot farther and working a lot harder trying to get a moose now. Randy hasn't gotten one yet this year, he's been out and I've been out. Quite a few times trying -- in pursuit -- and it is difficult to compete fairly with lodge outfitted companies that have jet boats, airplanes, Go-Devils, machines, and that are dedicated to 24 hours a day putting their clients on animals and getting them out. MR DON CALLOWAY: What's a Go-Devil? MR DAN SALMON: It's a boat that's got a prop that lays out about 12 feet, you lift up with a little stand and it goes through weeds and about 4 inches of water. MR DON CALLOWAY: Oh, geeze.
MR. DON CALLOWAY: So in this -- the change in the moose population, do you attribute that to maybe a change in habitat or increased hunting pressures or a combination? What's the -- MR. DAN SALMON: I think the large amount of increase in bears we're seeing. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: I think it's half -- a lot of it is variation from wolves and bears and then hunting pressure, too. MR. DAN SALMON: Compounded by the -- MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: I don't think it's the weather or the food. It's more -- MR. DON CALLOWAY: Why are the bears coming back? Why are the wolves and bear population coming back to hammer the moose? MR. DAN SALMON: Aerial wolf hunting was taken away, we saw a dramatic increase in the amount of wolves we're seeing now and seeing substantially less big game. My wife sees wolves now from the air and she never used to see -- MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Right out here, they were -- right there at the end of the road there, too. Even in Naknek, my cousin Richard Wilson, my town Naknek, we lost dogs, three dogs last year to wolves, three different times. Ate them up. MR. DON CALLOWAY: And are the bears starting to specialize on moose calves, too, that, in other parts of the state? MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Yeah, I seen them down Branch River. You right here. I've seen -- in fact, I was in a boat that time. That's the time where the -- there was a big bear and there was a cow and a calf. He was hounding, and we kind of chased him away, but I'm sure he probably ended up getting that calf after they left. And those were other times where I seen that there. In fact, it's hard to -- right now it's hard to get a moose on Branch River because of so much traffic and so many bears, you know, you've got a combination of the two. And moose, they just don't like all that traffic, and then the bears, there's so many bears eating the dead salmon that it just -- the moose just don't want to be there. So you know, what few moose are left, they are hard to get down there. And they just -- it seems to be getting less and less. In fact, our game biologist in King Salmon says that when he does his counts in November before -- before the winter season, he tries to do a count anyway, you know, and there's -- in November, and he says it's getting to be less and less calf survival rate per 100 cows, and that's why he -- they took away the moose or the cow season. In fact, he just did away with the cow season in the Aleknagnik River drainage, the Branch River drainage at the last winter at the last Board of Game meeting, so that was last winter. So they don't have that anymore. And I told him, you know, well, I've been telling the community that it's probably going to be a matter of time before we're going to be in Tier II because of the bears and the wolves and all of the other hunting pressure. You know. MR. DON CALLOWAY: How tough is it to get a Tier II through? I mean there's a lot of vested interest. MR. DON CALLOWAY: You just have to go -- to have to propose it before the Board of Game, State Board of Game. And they don't like to do it usually awhile, because it's a lot of work and it costs money and it -- MR. DAN SALMON: It hurts the economy for a lot of people. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Eliminating the sport hunters. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Yeah. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: Then only -- then only the local ones can get. MR. DON CALLOWAY: How about predator control on state land, though? Aren't they -- MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: The state doesn't want to do that. The Governor doesn't want to do that. The Board of Game wanted to do that a couple of years ago, but then the Governor, you know, they -- MR. DAN SALMON: Politics are -- MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: There's too much politics now. The Board of Fish and the Board of Game are having to deal with too much politics, so it's not biological anymore. Pol -- politics has a lot to do with governing, Board of Game and Fish in the state now. MR. DON CALLOWAY: And how about knocking out bears with DLP? I mean, that's used as a strategy in other areas. MR. DAN SALMON: With what? MR. DON CALLOWAY: Death, life or property. MR. DAN SALMON: Oh. MR. RANDY ALVAREZ: They will do that. MR. DAN SALMON: Yeah, I've seen that in sports season, I saw a sow and two cubs dead on Kukaklek a couple of years ago, been shot by a fisherman. I've -- I've seen over the years quite a few bears shot. This spring there was a bear wandering around, people saw it, it looked like it had been shot in the face, and I'm sure that was by a fisherman in the fall. That -- that's a definite increase. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: Well, this has -- this has been good. Any final comments or thoughts? MR. DAN SALMON: No, just thank you for the opportunity to at least hear our perspective of the use of that area. Appreciate the input. MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: Okay. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Let me mention what the process is going to be from here. Bill will take these tapes and provide the transcripts, then I will write a paper much like the Kokhanok one and -- MR. BILL SCHNEIDER: I'm going to go off tape 1. MR. DON CALLOWAY: Oh, sure. (End of recorded interview.)