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Arnold Brower, Sr., Interview 1, Part 2
Arnold Brower, Sr.

This is the continuation of an interview with Arnold Brower, Sr. (Tiġitquuraq) on March 12, 1982 by Bill Schneider and Wendy Arundale at this home in Barrow, Alaska (now known as Utqiaġvik) for the Chipp-Ikpikpuk and Meade Rivers Oral History Project. In this second part of a two part interview, Arnold continues to talk about travels in the Chipp-Ikpikpak area, hunting and fishing activities, and traditionally used sites. He also shares some traditional stories about the area, and describes reindeer herding and caribou hunting and migration. Arnold's wife, Emily, is also present during the interview and periodically adds comments from the background. (IHLC Tape #00042)

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Landmarks in the area.

Site of an Eskimo-Indian battle.

A shaman who told Arnold and a friend stories that were similar to Bible stories.

The area near Imaġruaq and how the Navy destroyed the lake there.

Areas discussed by Arnold's father, Charles Brower, Sr. in his book and the epidemic that killed a number of inland people.

Places that were associated with stories about prehistoric creatures or monsters.

A large fish encountered by a group of people who had gathered for trading and the route they took when traveling.

The location of Suqłaich and the meaning of the word.

How both inland and coastal people traveled a lot for subsistence purposes.

Trade goods thought to be left by a Russian trader.

Where he and his brother used to travel with the reindeer herds.

Simiutaq and the meaning of the word.

How present caribou migration patterns are different from those of the past.

Where Arnold's father used to hunt for caribou.

Training caribou and reindeer to be sled deer.

A site where jumping competitions were held and where the measurement markers were still visible.

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Bill: Nuisatchiuraq. What's that labeled as on the map there, Wendy? Wendy: I think it's N. Arnold: Mount, regular mount. That's a... Actually, what it is a mount where comes straight up to, I don't know how many feet, 200 some, 40-248 feet. It's a small base and goes directly high, doesn't it? Bill: What does that name mean? Arnold: Uh, outstanding mount that is visible as a landmark. Outstanding visible landmark. Because it will show from distance in all directions to be a mount in it's form, you know? Bill: Yeah. Arnold: Way, way distance. Emily: Just like Uġvik? Arnold: Huh? Emily: Just like Uġvik. Uġvik.....(unclear) Arnold: Uġvik is way down below and this one is on top of a hill. That's why, not on top of a hill, but it's on a flat, but it protrudes way up above high hills. It's high Emily: How big around is it there? Arnold: Huh? Emily: One mile long?

Arnold: I don't know. I'm not familiar with near Colville River. I don't know where Aŋuyaaġvik is. It's the place where ....take place of the war. Our Eskimo history. Wendy: Aŋuyag... How do you say that? Arnold: Aŋuyaaġvik. Wendy: Aŋuyaaġvik? Arnold: It's right, right in here somewhere. Maybe there's a name for it. I heard that, that man over here tell stories about it, but I never gone that far. Bill: What man was that? Arnold: Aŋuyaaġvik. That he claims that there somewhere back defending Eskimos and Indians fought there. A great war in that area too, huh? Emily: I have a tape. I taped that story. (unclear). Arnold: It did so there they have defended their Eskimo (unclear). Bill: But we don't know exactly where that spot is. Arnold: I show it, no not exactly now. But I thought uh, Jonah might know it because his father, his grandfather tells these stories also, so he may knew it. Bill: It's up by past Howard Hill there. Arnold: Yes, anywhere right there. It's right on the ridge. Wendy: South of the Kigaliq or Maybe Creek? Arnold: North of Colville River. Here it is. Okay, Aŋuyaaġvik Pass, so it has to be right in here. Yeah, I thought they never put it there, Aŋuyaaġvik Pass. So this has been an area for defending Eskimo from Indian war. Bill: Is there a particular story about that war? Arnold: Yeah, it was a, I wish I could remember it, but this Nasuŋaluk was telling me about it too. Emily: I have the story on tape. Arnold: And he say that's he's seen the person who's actually is one of the participants in that war, who was, who had survived it. Only had a big war amongst the Indians and Eskimo. And how they defended their tribe and had beaten them, kill all the other side. But there weren't very many of them left when they did that. Emily: (unclear) Arnold: Yeah, so uh, there's a history to war, defending title of the land. Bill: Who were those people that were defending those Eskimos? Arnold: Eskimo tribe from the coastal. Bill: A coastal tribe? Arnold: Yeah, this Eskimo tribe fighting, defending themselves on the Indian trying to take over portions of, I bet. The main fight ended up on women and getting, you know. They seems to know each other. The Eskimos and Indians seem to know who is who on what side. Emily: I have Bessie's story...(unclear) Arnold: They call Indians Itqiliq, Itqiliq, Itqiliq. Bill: Is that Bessie Ericklook? Emily: Yeah, Bessie Ericklook story. Arnold: Yeah, this story exists.

Arnold: And me and Charlie was over here in this, this ... Point Vallit. Bill: Point Holiyokon? Wendy: What's the, is there an Iñupiat name for that place? Bill: Let me do a check here while you... Arnold: On the coast. And the dog was tied up on, on some kind of a noose to here and a wood tied up right to the neck collar. That's how the dog was tied up his old Eskimo family here. When, I thought I could remember that name, but there were three families there when we get there. And one of the shamans you know shaman, those supernatural... Bill: Oh, Shamans. Arnold: Shamans? One of them was a Shaman. And we were told to watch pretty closely when we get there. We were kids now, young, about 17-18 years old. That's, but we take care of ourselves pretty much. We supply some food for that old bugger, and he would tell us some stories. We would pay him in food. Emily: Oh, is that ah.... Arnold: Amaġuaq Emily: Amaġuaq, hmm. Arnold: Amaġuaq yeah. Amaġuaq and his wife, we have collected historical evidence of stories that reach back. I wish I could remember all of them, but some. Looks like some of the stories that they tell are (unclear) related to the Bible. So, ah, how he could remember one story comparing it to some portion where God made this and God made that and Adam and Eve, the first people, and all those just by memory. It took him about three weeks to tell us that story about eight hours a day from memory. And he, we laughed about it cause when you tried to compare it to the Bible he tried to quote some you know, places in the Bible where he take, where he may have taken. he never really came out with it. He usually I think, this is where they fit together all the rest. The creator was the same similar type but in different form. So, it kind of a put me in an area where how, how could they carry back in memory that type of a story and where did it come from? So it kind of ah, puts you in an area where it becomes questionable maybe, they may have a portion of the people that crosses the, you know, the Bering Sea area. Because that particular story telling had the merit in my memory when he use to tell us that. I wish we had taped it. Wendy: I wish you had too. Bill: So you supplied him with food and he would tell you about... Arnold: Yeah, we did supply them because we did have a, I wish if that, if my father find out about this he would have fired us long time ago. But, me and Charlie would pay him some reindeer, choice reindeer meat. We'd butcher some because we were out in nowhere, and we'd go have some entertainment and recreation. And that's how we gain a lot of these stories from that old timer. He'd tell us and we'd give him some good food, some tobacco, chewing tobacco. A little bit of what we could get and smuggle in to him, and he'd tell us stories and keep telling us stories. While we was in that area we'd go back and forth to that old fellah and he'd tell us more stories. So that this was the things we found out.

Arnold: This, this lake was in full subsistence value at that time. It was good fishing. Bill: Imaġruaq? Arnold: Yeah, but the Navy somehow started to, I don't know how, probable 'cause they trying to cross with their tracks and started off and finally break through, emptied itself out into the ocean. It's no more there, with a, it's just a big flat, mud flat. I've tried to... Emily: (unclear) Arnold: I know Jonah Leavitt and them know about it. They lived there most of their lives. Emily: Is that anywhere near Cape Halkett? Arnold: Cape Halkett is over here. Emily: (unclear) My girl friend and I went there by dog team. Arnold: Oh you gonna get some good stories about this portion from those people that lived there. Isaac Elavgak (Ilavgaq), what's his name, is? Emily: Bradford? Arnold: Bradford, ah, Joe? Joe Elavgak that old lady. That old lady, their mother. May, you may have to interpret her, but I, maybe try to get him down to where you want to listen to the guy, old lady. Bill: Who's that? Arnold: Ah, Freida? Emily: (Unintel) Arnold: It is. Also the daughter of that Simon. That I, ah,... Emily: (unclear) Arnold: No. The other one, the old one, the one I didn't quite see and listen. I see you, but didn't listen. Big one. I think that's, that's his father. He may not talk about his father but I think he talk about some of the historical sites.

Emily: How about reading your father's book? Arnold: Huh? Emily: Reading your father's book. Bill: I don't remember Charlie mentioning any sites in here, but he may have talked about some of the people that... Arnold: Ah, what my father had gone into inland area to hunt, mentioned various areas they went for caribou hunting, but he never goes into areas. But I think he never mentions those people these sites, but he did mention in his book, uh, you know when they are competing? What you call that? Olympics? Wendy: Yeah, games. Arnold: That type of an event that happened one time, during that course and they tried to get back home. Those inland group people that tried to come back to their inland sites. Bill: Who, who? Arnold: He mentioned all of that, but those people who were participating never made it back. They all died from that, that sickness. Bill: Oh, that's what you were talking about a little bit earlier. Arnold: Yeah, I thought those...what I saw in there, I thought may have some of the things that were left by this. Kind of put me in an area to question myself. Were those? Am I seeing some of these struggles, survival trying to survive by the time that these people trying to get back home? Bill: What was your father saying about the people trying to get back up the Ikpikpak? Arnold: Ikpikpak and probably Meade River, both. Bill: Yeah, when was that? Arnold: It's in the book. Bill: Okay, and they were trying to, this was the flu or some sort of epidemic? Arnold: Yeah, and they mentioned that they had follow up on the course to find out what happened. And find out on their travels they were just discovering dead peoples on the bed, river bed. And then some tried to make it home and never did quite make it home. Those who made it home kind of make it hard on the ones that were there because they were communicating the disease, spreading it as they go until it kind of wiped out a lot of people. So, what I'm saying on that area, some of the observations I make I could question in that area what I see, were actual works of people. So, in that area of Chipp River, in my lifetime, that recourse and eats away up the river itself has moved a lot in every direction. Even I have to move my own house sometimes when one spring the river kind of gouged in there and drop about 60 feet and drop the whole river down. So it forever you have to run away from that river. And it, it's shifting. It just well, that type of blowing sand type. Dune type of a sand in that area. It easily shifts.

Bill: Did this, were there any old stories about those prehistoric animals that people found? Arnold: Well, up to today we still. For instance, my nephew Tom Brower, Jr., went just beyond that and say he found a protruding mammoth tusk, and he wants to go up there and take it out. Protruding out from the sand bar. A huge tusk. He want to go salvage it. Bill: But were there any stories that people had explaining those animals? How did they explain them when they found them in the past? Arnold: Oh, they claim they, they have been here. But a, they want a story I know was actually right here, of where this old fellow was telling us about this. You're pulling back the memory here. They call it a, what do they call it, a ugruŋnaq, ugruŋnaqpak. Bill: This place right here? Arnold: Yeah, somewhere right there. Wendy: Ugruŋnaqpak? Arnold: Yah, ugruŋnaqpak meaning a large shrew type monster. Bill: Let's call that AB-15. Wendy: Okay. Arnold: Right here, that's where it was slain by a brother, couple brothers known to be Ilaganaq. Ah, a brothers with the webbed hands. You know, they were two brothers in this story that had webbed hands. Two brothers and those were unusual to human, you know, people that have actually come up and killed that monster. And that was the location, was right at that place. It's a, I don't know, I haven't seen. They claim that the skeleton was still there and I don't know. I haven't seen him myself. Bill: That is near that... Arnold: Daniel Leavitt's camp Bill: Daniel Leavitt's camp. Arnold: Right in that area. Iqsiññat that what they call it. Iqsiññat meaning a place where they're scared of. Iqsiññat. That's what it means. A land where you have to take precautions, a danger area. More recently was called that area because there was this ugruŋnaq. That it had to be a prehistoric thing but was finally killed by two brothers they called Ilagaññiq brothers. Now, with webbed hands. (unclear) Bill: Was that unusual for people to have webbed hands then? Arnold: Yeah, These two brothers were mentioned to various times in various areas to be the only two that were super in the maneuvers of water and areas of (unintel.). They say they have the ability to stay underwater just like an ugruk. Ugruk see, takes about 10 minutes or more for ugruk to stay under water before they would come up. So it was feet,.... of them staying under there. There's a story goes into that. They claim it was a true story. But handed down from one generation to the other. It's a story. But never in, in a written form. Bill: Yeah, sure. Wendy: Right. Arnold: How much change it has gone because in the service and when it finally started to go from one person to another in a circle in a training. That story started off from there and it would be something else over on the other side. So, I've experienced a change of a part from one starting point just by communication orally to go to the next point. So, I don't know how much change it has but the story still continue in the fashion. That's one of those historic sites that should have been, if there were remains still visible.

Arnold: And another one, ah, I can not pinpoint, but I think it's on the southern portion of Tasiqpak where a group of inland people and people that come in from bartering were meeting together for the night. Bill: For the what? Arnold: One one night. Bill: For one night. Arnold: The travel group and camp had experience and witness a sighting of a of the spearmen spearing a (unintel.). And they spear, just shorted in the water and killed a large fish, to be about the spines, to be about the same size as that whale. And they claim that the, skeletons were still visible on that area. I don't know exactly where it is, but that's another story that was continued on of those bartering people. See, Barter Island along the coast here? That's the route of that barter group, see. This bartering area goes through here, comes right through here to that little stream, goes through here all the way down through here, another little stream, and follow the short cut. I follow those patterns. That's historical trail, water route. Maybe I should ah... Bill: Yeah, why don't you go ahead and mark it. Tommy marked this one here, but why don't you go ahead and mark another one if there's another trail there too. Arnold: Okay. (Pause). If I have the other side. It goes to Sinclair Lake. Right in here, right in through here Sinclair Lake up to the ocean. That's another one. Bill: Okay. (Pause) Arnold: The west boundary of that thing is just...don't know exactly where, I'm lost here. There's a cabin. It's a short cut to this river. Bill: Uh huh. But it goes up through here, huh? Arnold: Yeah, that's it. There is about 12 feet, only 12 feet of land right here. About the only place where they stop over. Only 12 feet of, well maybe 4-8-12-16 maybe, may 20 feet. Arnold: Twenty feet of landspace where's a low land and it goes right over. But the last time I went through there, it had gone through. Bill: We'll call that AB-16. Arnold: That's the barter route. It goes right through this, ah....(Pause).

Bill: One of the things we've been struggling with is what Suqłaich means? Arnold: Huh? Bill: Suqłaich? Wendy: Suqłaich? Bill: Suqłaich? Arnold: Suqłaich? Bill: Yeah. Arnold: Okay, right here. Oh, let's see Iqsiññat? Alright Suqłaich is right here. Okay? Bill: Okay, We'll call that AB-17. Arnold: Oh. Right at the end of that bend there's a small stream going down that way, that's Suqłaich. Bill: What does Suqłaich mean? AB-17. Arnold: That's a name I don't know. I haven't really found out the meaning of Suqłaich. But it means a place where there's a lotta, you know debris maybe that's what it is. A lot of debris area, Suqłaich. Bill: Does it refer to one place or an area? Arnold: Yeah, one place it's a ..., when we were going through there in 1939, I think. There was a house and a group of cellars. Charlie could remember pretty well that area because when he got lost, he got in there. And I from there on I met him back again when he was trying to get back home up to that area where we were staying here. So from the.... he was chasing wolves. He sent down there somewhere and roam around and started to come back home. And I met him up there and he was lost. Emily: How about (unintel). He was lost from here. Arnold: So Charlie had been there and back and I...when he really tells the story about the house and the cellars I know exactly where he was then. He was in Suqłaich and back.

Bill: One of the things we've been struggling with is to figure out in the old days who the people were that were called Ikpikpaŋmuit? Arnold: Ikpikpaŋmuit were people, what known as inland people by my father. Not the coastal people. The Inland people. Bill: But from the period we talk about, people from the coast were going inland too. Arnold: Well they mingled a lot. They traveled and barter and do a lot of things for subsistence purposes. These people was, I would call them nomadic people. Because they travel a lot. They had no specific one place they called. Those Eskimos were always traveling. For, for survival. They know all of this area for subsistence needs. For instance, this area here is one of the landmarks to be an area where they can go and provide food year around. Bill: Z-8. Arnold: And another one over on this side called Tasiġruaq. And this was one of them. But this river had taken it into a course on it's course. Bill: Okay, we'll call that AB-18. So in your father's day.... Arnold: Yeah, that's one that ah, it's an everywhere, that's a new one. We have to go back, right here. (Pause). It's not that one, I know. It's a historic site also for people that goes there quite often and that it? Not this one. It's getting a little too small, but, I'm not too sure that's it right there. I'm gonna have to have a spyglass, seeing like that. (Pause) This is more attractive. That could be it. I'm trying to..., I'm following the river where it enters. I know it by means of how it enters into the lake. It goes to the side. Where was I? I would say that portion is so mentioned many times as a spawning area for white fish. Bill: What kind where? Arnold: People of various areas. Bill: AB-19. Arnold: Yeah. Bill: This one here? AB-19. Arnold: Yeah this little lake right here, may have some significant surroundings for subsistence gathering at times. Bill: Spawning area. Arnold: Yeah. I know these lakes, rivers and lakes, but I think this is the one that I heard so many times to be a subsistence spawning... It's a spawning ground for those fish, and they know it and when they spawn they go and pick up a lot of fish, you know? And they just go in there and get grayling and whitefish and all that spawning and they just mingle in there and get them.

Arnold: Some my kids generally happy, they drive me out of my house because shock, you know, Well. Bill: Gee that's good. Arnold: I'm taking up quite a bit here. Bill: Yeah. Wendy: You've certainly given us a great deal of help. Arnold: Alaqtaq. You're not taking any great starts of anything. But this is something. I gonna talk. On the other side of Barrow. Arnold: (Unintel.) Arnold: Russian Trader. Bill: Where? Arnold: This side of Meade River, on Inaru? Bill: What made you think it was Russian? Arnold: Well, the older, older big people they said those white people had been here at that time and these are some of the things that they left. Bill: 'Cause I think that maybe Gray was up the Meade River, an old army hand. Arnold: I heard about this but there was some old mining stoves, hand made, metal stoves, rotten, I don't think you could find them now. And that time they were just a, in form you know. They could have been mining. Mining camps too, or...

Arnold: Under my brother's management, the headquarters is Alaqtaq. And ah, I learned a lot from that because this was our grazing area. This, here, right this way. We traveled with that herd in winter. Springtime we swing over this way, and then follow this pattern each year with the heard that we have. And then push the herd all the way back into that peninsula. And then we'd retreat back to... and walk from this portion. Bill: So you did kind of like a big vase. You went down here and did a bell and came back, and crossed the river...Where did you cross the river? Arnold: Usually crossed the river right between this section and this section. Sometimes through these areas. Bill: Around Y there? Y and Z-2? Arnold: Yeah. Bill: Around Chipp 10? Arnold: For reason, because those we have to come down through some of the flats. We know that the bluff area where for many years. We know the area where we cross. Have to follow those kind of a slope. Good skiing area. Wendy: Good skiing area? Arnold: Yeah, that's where I learned how to ski. Wendy: Good skiing area? Arnold: Yeah, that's where I learned how to ski. Wendy: Now what times of year would you be where in this movement pattern? Arnold: Fall, early in the fall, after had a ah, corraling time. We'd count and mark the reindeer in fall. Right at Alaqtaq, we had a corral there. And before we erect a corral, we'd go into any of these lakes and dip a corral, a lost corral out of ice. And then after we marked the herd, we man the deer everyday. We followed them around. We just protect them. And we started to take them up there for a reason that we know this was good feeding ground. We stay there during the winter, winter months right in here. We moved around with reindeer. Wendy: That area southeast of Tasiqpak Lake? Arnold: Yeah, right in here. We roamed that area for the winter, right here. That's where we stopped. At times we would presume to go up here to get where we was better located. Burn coal for our fuel, you know, and we used some willows now and then and try to carry enough (unclear). But there were lot of wolves at that time. There were a lot of wolves. We have to be 24 hour watch when we're up in that area. During the, just before the fawning season we would go across for fawning, okay. The first fawn would be born right here, right in here somewhere. Bill: Just to the west? Arnold: One the west side of the Chipp River. Always there. We never, we know timing. We learn just like doctors the time, you know. So we slowly move back into this direction. Bill: Northerly? Arnold: Yeah, and until we goes into that area, and we'd cross, always cross through here, because this a..., this is a kind of a heavy with sand, blowing sand. So the..., we cross through here where there's kind of a clean sand, clean. Bill: Near Chipp 1? Arnold: Huh? Bill: Near Chipp 1? Arnold: Yeah, right on lowest portion of Chipp 1 crossing to this. This is clean. This is white, pure white all the time. This section is always clean all the way up to here, up to this hill. Bill: Up to your camp on the Chipp? Arnold: You can travel with a sled no matter what comes up but pure white, cause it's pure just like, no blowing sand here. On the west portion it would be dirty with blowing sand accumulated. But somehow this portion is always clean, it's a roadway for traveler on sleds. That's why I can get up there with a dogsled anytime, right up to this. I'm experiencing that area. I know that, that when I selected these areas, I knew exactly what I was selecting. It's got the reason for various selections cause at the time when I maneuvered this are, I also observed caribou. This pattern of caribou travel goes through this Isuliumaniq and through Pittaq here. It's a heavy bullmarching through that area every fall. Just the bulls, just no mingle of any kind. Bulls. Just like National Guard marching, you know. (laughter). That's why I like that area. I can select any amount of caribou, my take for the subsistence and that's it. I know exactly what I want to take. Also on fish.

Bill: When did...... Arnold: I pull clothing, at the time, I select clothing. And goes up again like I said the Simiutaq that the females are going through here, with fawns. Bill: Did that Simiutaq refer to a place or a... Arnold: Simiutaq is something that you plug a bottle, you know. When you plug that bottle you, you had a cork. When you look at Chipp River up that way with this high bank around it, okay? With high bank around, it you look up there, you look at bluish, greenish end. It look like that's where you have plugged the river. When you look at it at a distance and they call it just that Simiutaq. A place where a piece of plug got stuck in there. It's a real high portion on these. More like a canyon, little canyon. But you get there. It's ..., that's how it looks from a distance, but you get there, it's wide. You have to go there close to it in order not to even see what they talk about. But from a distance when you look at it, that's how it looks. From this portion, kind of a greenish blue. It's high at times now. That's what it is.

Bill: Sure, I think we better quit now. Wendy: People living up in this area and people that we might talk to. Can you tell who might help us? Arnold: Freida Elavgak is the oldest. Wendy: Freida next door someplace down here. Wendy: Elavgak? Arnold: Elavgak, yah. And he may have all kinds of history of lotta things. This a historic site but I want to mention that up to the mouth of here, this is, it's a Olympic. And the site marker for jumps Olympic. You'd be surprised what, how, what type of people lived there one time and for the... Bill: Let's mark that site there and then we'll call it quits. Arnold: Okay. For the measurement of double jumps; one jump and all of these. It's unusual for a group of people to do these thing. Emily: Bones? Bill: Where's that spot Arnold? Arnold: I'm going to have to find that. (unclear) This is flood waters. Okay, could be right here. Bill: Okay. Arnold: Because it's at the mouth of this stream that goes all the way up into these rivers, huh. It's a good fishing area. It's a small stream, Suqłak, where's my Suqłak? Bill: That's your Suqłak right there. Arnold: Suqłak right here. Let me put it right there. This is...that's a historical marking don't let anybody go through there and bulldoze any portion of that land. Bill: That looks like it's right near Noah Itta's camp. Arnold: Noah...Olympic markers in there for barter. See this happened. All of the barter group meet in that area for a purpose of that's a good fishing area. Getting more place before they go any further. Subsistence during the travel. So what they do, they have Olympics there, see who's the best. Bill: I'll be darned. Arnold: And there's markers there. From ever since the, the Eskimo remembered. They are groups of markers that nobody has ever reached yet to beat what they did. The records. So they are there...They, they good. Bill: Ah, yeah. Emily: Aren't they the bones from here? Part of the bones. Arnold: No, this is just markers that the...field markers where they take, I mean the measurements for the jumps. Emily: Where do they talk about those bones then? Arnold: Up here, that's where. I'm trying to, only up here. But I'm not, not just positive exactly pin point there. It's a bowl. A bowl made out of knuckles. Knuckles that fits together on the hind leg knuckles. You know the hind leg knuckles that comes off. That tributary in various form. They, make the bowl out of those knuckles. It's a big bowl where they make...There is supposed to be a pounder and anvil of rock and a bowl...made out of knuckles, ah, or a... Emily: It's on a hill. Arnold: Yeah, it's on the side of a hill and its a place where they go and hunt for caribou. They have to reach it from this area, from this section because it goes right through here. Those people may know more about it. I'm forever trying to experience it. I've walked to it, I've walked to it, but nobody teach me exactly where it is. Since I never pin point it. My, my brother-in-law, Ikiun, yeah, might, might, Ikiun might have some history. He's my sister's husband right next door. Bill: What's his name? Arnold: Gerald Sakeagak. He's the one surviving Sakeagak now. His brother just passed away that a have a right here, homesite right here. So he actually was reared up right here Qalluvik. Bill: At Qalluvik. Arnold: And that's his cabin right here. Bill: We'll call that AB-21. Arnold: That belongs to my brother-in-law. Bill: Okay, lets...