Project Jukebox

Digital Branch of the University of Alaska Fairbanks Oral History Program
Virgil Naylor, Sr., Interview 2

Virgil Naylor, Sr. was interviewed on March 31, 2016 by Karen Brewster at his home in Kotzebue, Alaska. His wife, Elsie, was listening in from the adjoining room. In this interview, Virgil talks about working for the White Alice Communiciations System at the Cape Lisburne and Kotzebue stations. He discusses getting hired and trained in the Lower 48 by RCA, the company who had the contract to maintain the communication systems, his duties as a technician, and being Native amongst a mostly non-Native workforce. He also talks about the connections between the Air Force and White Alice employees and facilities and the local community, and the impact of having these military sites in Kotzebue.

Digital Asset Information

Archive #: Oral History 2014-18-13

Project: Cold War in Alaska: Nike Missile Sites
Date of Interview: Mar 31, 2016
Narrator(s): Virgil Naylor, Sr.
Interviewer(s): Karen Brewster
Transcriber: Joan O'Leary
Location of Interview:
Funding Partners:
Alaska Historical Commission, Alaska Humanities Forum
Alternate Transcripts
There is no alternate transcript for this interview.
Slideshow
There is no slideshow for this person.

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Sections

Being trained in electronics for a job with the White Alice system

RCA hiring and training

Working at the Cape Lisburne White Alice station as a technician

Other Native technicians, and pay scale

Transfer to Kotzebue White Alice station, and work schedule

Connections between people at White Alice, the Air Force base, and the local community

U-2 and other military airplanes at Kotzebue

Listening for, tracking, and responding to incoming Russian airplanes

Attempt to transfer him to Barrow (Utqiagvik)

Other jobs that Kotzebue people had at the Air Force base and White Alice station

DEW Line versus White Alice, and maintaining communication system

Working for RCA and then ITT, and rewards of the job

Local concern about Cold War threats

Impact of having the Air Force and White Alice sites in Kotzebue

Challenges of the technician job, and getting spare parts

Recreational activities on days off

Mixing work with supporting family by hunting and trapping

Learning English in school, and importance of math for the job

Working as a carpenter after White Alice shut down

Getting stuck at the White Alice station during a blizzard

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Transcript

KAREN BREWSTER: (Today is March 31st,) 2016, and this is Karen Brewster with Virgil Naylor, Sr., in Kotzebue in his home and talk a little bit about when he worked for White Alice and some of those experiences.

Quyana, Virgil. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Okay, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. So, when did you start working for White Alice?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: The year I really started working was 1965, August. KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: After going -- The way I get to this program was there was some people -- I mean a -- a -- a representative for RCA school, RCA Institute that -- not the school but a company that hires the people for technicians.

He was going through the villages or any place through the good grades and see if they could apply.

It's a BIA program, too, also, yeah. I mean they -- they funded it -- funded us on that part of it, so --

So 1962 was when I went to electronics school down Los Angeles, California for 18 months.

KAREN BREWSTER: And that was through the BIA program?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, it was BIA program. Well, they funded us, yeah, yeah.

And from ’62 December 'til ’64, L.A., and from there they transfer us to New York for the last four months before I graduate from there.

So it was a two year program year round, year round, no breaks. There was something like just a couple breaks here and there.

We can say that was a real challenge for me. Myself. Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did you take your whole family with you? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No, I wasn’t married then. Yeah, my family's out there now. No.

KAREN BREWSTER: You were single? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, I was single.

KAREN BREWSTER: How old were you?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: That was after -- way -- I get out of Service, so I was back to carpenter work. But I worked for a while and I went down, down Northeast Cape, Gambell. Down there.

Yeah, that's where I was working in building school down there, and --

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. So were you in your twenties or thirties?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, that was in '60s, right after I get out of -- Was I in what?

KAREN BREWSTER: How old? You were in your -- VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Twenties. Around twenties, around there, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Okay. Okay.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: But, no -- Yeah, when I went to service at 21. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, okay, so after that. Yeah.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, after that. I work for them before right after high school doing apprentice work with the construction. Also, it was a PDA.

They called it plan, design and construction of -- building schools all over.

KAREN BREWSTER: So why did you decide to go do the electronics?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, the carpentry foreman we got out there. I mean, the one wouldn’t get along so I just pick up my tools and went home.

In the meantime, when I went home there was another project in there, in Noatak, building same school that year, too, and that was my foreman right there before.

He asked me to do work for him, but I said I'll do the hunting first. By that time, there was this guy coming around looking for applicants, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Cool.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: So that's how I get involved with that program.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then you say RCA Company came looking for people?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: RCA was a contractor for the Air Force as a maintenance of their communications. Civilian contractors. KAREN BREWSTER: Right.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: RCA was a main contractor at that time, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. And you said that before they had non-Native people coming up here and working, and -- ?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah, that -- that's what it is. The turnover rate was real bad with the -- with the people working. They make money for a year or two first and 'cause -- some of these places are remote sites like in Cape Lisburne, there's no people there, only Air Force.

And it's pretty hard for them. Some of them with a family, you know, staying, being out there working. But they have a different pay scale for being in the -- in the remote site.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, but so the RCA Company decided to try hiring local people?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, they put a program in there, yeah, under BIA. KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: And they started looking around for applicants, yeah. With good grades and set up with -- Yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so how many other Native people worked on that?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: There was about -- when we graduated, Natives, several of us here, there's not that much. I think that’s about ten of us or so when we graduated from New York.

And some of them were married. When they went down to school they took their wives, and --

But then after they come up here, their being in remote site and recently married it was pretty hard for them, so I think I was the only one that lasted on the Native side to be -- work for 13 years 'til they phase them out, so --

KAREN BREWSTER: Did -- did they guarantee you a job when you went to school?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, yeah, that -- that was it. They -- they -- the jobs there.

And when we do apply. I mean, when they interview us, I did -- I was able to -- there's the three. There's the White Alice system, and there's a DAP project was tracking satellites, and there's BMEWs (Ballistic Missile Early Warning), is a ballistic warning system just like one in Clear. One down at Shemya. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Colorado, and one in -- in Thule, Greenland. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, right. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then also DEW Line or --

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: DEW Line was linked with this where -- We're the last White Alice at Cape Lisburne. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: From there it's linked that DEW Line all the way up so, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so what kind of -- once you started working at White Alice -- Here in Kotzebue, is that where you started?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah. No, when -- actually I started at Cape Lisburne. KAREN BREWSTER: Cape Lisburne. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So what kind of things did you do on the job?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Our -- our main purpose was to maintain communications for the Air Force.

So we do repair, we install communications and repaired equipment.

And that's the main thing was communication for the Air Force. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And what was that like being way out there at Cape Lisburne?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, for me, you know, this was home. It's no problem for me, yeah.

It was -- I fit in there, so -- especially when -- I be the only Native up at Cape Lisburne. There's about 105 of them Air Force people there so -- But it was a good living there.

KAREN BREWSTER: And you were the only Native? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, I'm used to it anyhow.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Yeah. So how'd you get along with all those Air Force guys?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, I did wonderful. I -- I did good, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: They were nice to you?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, they were. Yeah. They treat me real good, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And did you get paid pretty good?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, the pay was good, yeah. Well, the way the pay scale really was when you're first a technician, a junior technician, they put you in a B scale, which is every -- every six months they evaluate you for seven steps. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: And from -- from there you go to A Tech. A Technician's another seven steps 'til you become a top technician.

So there're fourteen steps to get up there. Every six months evaluation, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And what place did you go -- By the time you retired after 13 years, where did you get to?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, I become a LSR, lead-side representative, after -- on White Alice system here, and I maintain the whole -- whole thing there, so --

KAREN BREWSTER: So you moved up?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, I was on -- Well, there's only four or five of us out here working six nine's and we do shift work. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: And -- but more or less in charge a lot of times when the supervisor's gone. So that's pretty on top side.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, that's pretty good.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: In fact, I was a -- I get the most points in the whole White Alice system being that long in one, you know, in that stretch of time so --

So if there's an opening any place in the White Alice system, I could ask -- ask for that place. So that was great about it.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And when you started at Cape Lisburne, were there other technician level guys, but they were non-Native?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: There was one Native from -- Sam Kitka from Sitka area, yeah. But he was there for about a year, but they --

The way it operated, if there's a opening in any White Alice site they put it out for -- for bid or the ones with the most points would get it.

So that's the way they operate for transferring people around here. That's why I moved over here to Kotzebue. There was an opening here, so they put me right over here.

KAREN BREWSTER: And you asked to move? You knew -- VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, they asked for me, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, yeah.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, 'cause I put my name in there so -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so Sam Kitka, he moved 'cause he --

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Down -- Annette Island and Ketchikan, there's a site there where those -- Yeah, that's where he moved to 'cause he's from Sitka, so, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: I wondered if at the technician level, if there was a Native technician and a white technician, did you get paid the same amount of money?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, naturally. Yeah, yeah, we -- we -- we -- the pay rate is -- it's -- that's it. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: That’s it, yeah, yeah. It's set out. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah. It's all a contract with, you know, RCA against technicians. We’re -- we're under union, too.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, you were under union, okay. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. 'Cause I know that, you know, 1960’s the way white people and Native people got along was different than now.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Much, much different now, I guess, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So I was trying to see what it was like then.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: For me, it's pretty much -- 'cause I more or less grew up when I -- I way out -- just like in Mt. Edgecumbe out there and all that, and in Washington state when I was in service for two years and all.

So it's not really a problem for me, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And so you were at Cape Lisburne for two years?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: About pretty close to a year. KAREN BREWSTER: A year. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah. Eleven months. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: And there's an opening over here and I got that one over here, yeah.

And that's where I met my wife. KAREN BREWSTER: Was she working at White Alice?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No, she was working at the hospital as a practical nurse, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, cool. And so once you came here to Kotzebue you -- you --

Well, I guess at Cape Lisburne when you're so far away, did you work shifts at Cape Lisburne, too?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Every, every, every site works in shifts, yeah. 24 hours a day, nine hours a day, yeah. And I work six nines, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so here in Kot -- Cape Lisburne there was no community to go -- VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No, no. KAREN BREWSTER: -- visit.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: That's it out there in boondocks. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, that's it.

KAREN BREWSTER: So here in Kotzebue did -- you came home every night? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Shifts, yeah?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah. But I have a chance to stay at the site, too, if I have to or if I wanted to but --

'Cause being a civilian and working out there they -- we -- we do have a officer’s status with the Air Force out there. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, you did? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And so did most of the employees stay out there?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, it's -- most of them are in town, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Most of them lived in town? The white guys lived in town?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: They’re married, too, some of these technicians that were out there.

Yeah, they were married to locals, some of them. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh yeah? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah.

In fact, there was one technician that was before me. His name was Jimmie Greg and he's living in Arizona now.

He was working out there or -- He also come back and work around here so, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So the guys who worked out on base they could come into town back and forth? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: What about the Air -- That -- They were contractors, right? They were RCA? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: RCA, yeah, yeah, yeah. We were civilian -- civilian out there. KAREN BREWSTER: Civilian.

What about the Air Force guys?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: They could come to town. They come to town regular too, yeah, yeah.

You had no problem. I don’t -- I don't think they ever have a problem around here.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. I wondered if all those young handsome military guys came and had girlfriends in town? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, yeah, yes. I think so, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. I was wondering how much of that happened?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: I have no idea of that stuff. I didn’t keep track.

KAREN BREWSTER: You didn’t notice it, huh?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: But some of them do get married locally, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Or if they came into the bars? There were bars in Kotzebue?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: At that time, there was a city-owned bar for a while and liquor store. That was about it. But it's been quite sometimes ago, so -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: But the Air Force site has a bar. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, it did?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, they got bowling alleys, everything set up out there.

So we’d go out there and do some bowling and everything, and locals could go out there and do bowling, too, so. KAREN BREWSTER: They could? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And they could go to the restaurant and bar and stuff?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, they -- they had to be invited to go to the bar. You had to be as a guest.

You had to sign them in 'cause anything happened when the guy that signed him would be responsible for the -- for the locals, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did they have Christmas parties and stuff out there?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, we used to -- that time we were in a different zone, time zone. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. Oh? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Remember?

KAREN BREWSTER: That was before my time.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, 'cause we’re in Air Force time, which is one hour ahead, and over here we're one hour -- But we do go to work with the Air Force time though, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, how confusing.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: So -- so we used to have New Year’s -- We used to have a New Year’s out there first and come right home and have another New Year’s locally here.

KAREN BREWSTER: I never knew they were on different times.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, we were in different -- just from here to Kotzebue, you know. They operated on Alaska Standard Time out there, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So, I've -- I've also -- you were -- In 1962, you were at Cape Lisburne -- VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: That's after -- KAREN BREWSTER: -- right?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No, no, I was down in New York. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, so -- VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, no, L.A. I’m sorry. KAREN BREWSTER: L.A, yeah, yeah. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay, 'cause there was --

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: 1964, I was at Cape Lisburne. After I graduated, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Because I've heard a story that 1962 in October, a big U-2 airplane -- VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: -- landed here. That it had to fly back from Russia 'cause it was in the wrong place.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: I'm not aware of that. KAREN BREWSTER: Well, you weren’t here.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: But there -- I remember -- I recall one time there's a jet landed out here in the airport. It was surrounded by Air Force. That must've been it, I guess.

KAREN BREWSTER: Well, maybe a different one? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, I think --

KAREN BREWSTER: 'Cause the one I've heard was 1962. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, okay.

KAREN BREWSTER: And you weren’t -- wouldn’t have been here. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No, no, no, no.

KAREN BREWSTER: What’s the one you remember?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: The one I -- I guess there was -- You know, that was kind of strange when I went to Gambell down there to work.

Here was people looking up in the sky with the binoculars. They were watching a Air Force -- planes, you know, dog fighting up there. Be chasing around each other. And he said it was getting interesting in there.

But the one that came over here, I guess, he was in the same situation that planes can -- were running out of gas, he had to land over here so, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: And that’s the only incident I know.

KAREN BREWSTER: You remember seeing that plane?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah. It was all -- all surrounded. They Air Force guys went out there. Nobody could be out in the airfield then, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, it closed it out. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, so working at that White Alice, do you remember did they listen to Russians and hear things? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, we don’t --

KAREN BREWSTER: Did they ever talk about that?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: We don’t really listen to them, you know, but they did track them with a -- with a -- What -- what do they call that?

KAREN BREWSTER: That radar?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Radar, yeah, yeah, yeah. You keep track of them, yeah. Up Cape Lisburne, there's all kinds of them.

They try to sneak in all the time, so -- Day and night there's alarms up there sometimes, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, so you knew about the -- those guys sneaking around?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, they’re watching them 'til they, yeah, 'til they -- Getting too close, they set alarm so everybody have to man your station up there, day or night.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And did -- They didn’t have missiles or anything to send off at Cape Lisburne? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No.

KAREN BREWSTER: What happened when they saw something?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, they have a hot line all the way to Colorado. NORAD, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: They could send out a plane from Fairbanks to encounter that, so --

KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm. Did that ever happen?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Not that I know of. But on White Alice, now if we're -- if -- if we are not in communications with next site, which is Cape Lisburne or down here it would be Granite Mountain or --

KAREN BREWSTER: Hm-mm. Anvil Mountain?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Anvil Mountain, also, yeah. They --

If we don’t have no communication, it was at seven minutes without, they consider us bombed.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh! VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Or something. Something would happen. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: So when do we have -- when we do have a power failure out there, equipment's also died down, so --

So what they gave us is, in order to get a communication going, you had to start the generator and back -- set -- reset all your equipment. And they give you four minutes grace time. KAREN BREWSTER: Whoa.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: For grace time. And after that, they charge RCA about $4,000 a minute or depends on how many circuits are in a board.

So, you know, it's a challenge.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, and so that happened?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, there were a lot of power failures. Some here and there.

So when there's a power failure, standby generator start up itself like that, but we had to reset our equipment out there so --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, so you never had them come and thinking you'd been bombed? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No, no, no, no, no. KAREN BREWSTER: You always made the time limit?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: We -- we always make sure we get our equipment up real pretty fast, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. So how did those stations operate? They had generators?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: They had standby generators. But the generators are actually from Air Force, yeah, the big Air Force site out there. And they always have generators.

KAREN BREWSTER: That's how they all kept going, generators?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah and every -- every White Alice Site have a standby generator.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. And you had talked about they tried to transfer you to Barrow.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, that Ensign was -- I guess some of the technicians up there wasn't getting along with the Natives up there, and RCA called me up.

And at that time, they already phase out this White Alice system, but RCA was still running those station up there. DEW Lines, yeah.

I get a call from RCA, see if I could go up there, and man the site, so --

But my schools were -- I had younguns going school in local over here.

KAREN BREWSTER: Your kids, yeah?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah. And my daughter was a valedictorian, also.

I didn’t want to move my kids around, so I says, I -- He asked me to call him back, I never did, because this is home. I -- I love to go out hunting all the time, so --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, but so it sounds like Barrow maybe Natives, non-Natives didn’t get along so well?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: That was one -- one -- one technician wasn’t getting along I guess, not -- not all of them are like that.

When some of them are -- weren’t getting along. That was -- that’s what I heard so --

But RCA did call me to see if I could go work up there for them.

KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. And here at the Kotzebue -- VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: We have no problem with that. KAREN BREWSTER: So you had no problem with it? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No, no. We get along.

KAREN BREWSTER: Were there other people from Kotzebue who worked out there?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of people that -- do you mean the White Alice edge?

KAREN BREWSTER: The White Alice here in Kotzebue.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, there was a -- Bert Havrun (sp? phonetic) was actually from California, but he got married local over here.

And one of them that transferred out of here, Nick Gangle (sp? phonetic) was his name. He was -- He opened up space for me, so -- When he moved down to Homer area.

KAREN BREWSTER: He opened a what?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: There was a opening at Homer White Alice site down there, so he had -- He got seniority -- KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: -- to get that bid out there, so -- KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: There's only four technicians out there all the time, so there were not that many at that one.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, but were there other jobs that people from Kotzebue had, like -- ? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, they -- KAREN BREWSTER: -- work at the restaurant or --

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, out there in the -- ? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, out there at Air Force side they do, yeah. They hire local people.

KAREN BREWSTER: They hired local people? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: What kind of jobs?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, just like dishwashers and some of them are electricians, also. A local ones out there with the -- working for Air Force as electrician.

I know of some few of them, yeah, yeah. Electricians mostly and -- and -- and housekeeping. That’s about it. And cook helpers and stuff like that, I guess. Not that much though.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, you know how many people -- jobs they -- ?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Alex was there. He's a Native. And John Goodwin work out there in the kitchen.

And Daphne Wallace working as a -- later on they started secretaries also out there. So -- But not that much. Maybe about four or five or so locals, yeah, in that side, in that part. Not under White Alice, under Air Force.

KAREN BREWSTER: On the -- on the DEW Line side? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah. No, White Alice. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, the Air Force side? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: White Alice. KAREN BREWSTER: White Alice. Yeah.

How many Air Force people were out there? How many -- you know, how big -- I don’t know how big a place it was.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, it was -- there was a lot of -- I don’t know if there's -- I don't know -- Just like in White --

At Cape Lisburne, when I get there, there's 105 of them. So there must be more over here, 'cause there's big sections of -- of -- what they call this, where they live? It was a pretty -- pretty big operation.

KAREN BREWSTER: Pretty big operation out there. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, was there a DEW Line station in Kotzebue also or just White Alice? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Just White Alice. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, okay.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: From -- the last link to White Alice to Cape Lisburne. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: From there --

KAREN BREWSTER: There they became DEW Line? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: DEW Lines, yeah. They call it Distant Earning Warning system.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And White Alice from Cape Lisburne south. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: All the way, yeah, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Down to Shemya?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: All the way to Shemya, yeah, yeah. Down to Annette Island.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, yeah. I thought White Alice was -- you said was communication. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: It is.

KAREN BREWSTER: But you could track planes from it?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, the Air Force -- Air Force do that. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: We maintain the communications.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then the Air Force was also tracking?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah, they do that. That’s -- Our main job was the communications.

Yeah, make sure they commence work and all that jazz.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. So if they see something on their radar, they use your communication to tell -- VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: -- the next guy?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We maintain communication, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. I don’t know what that means, maintain communications. I don’t know anything about electronics.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, we make sure they work, yeah. So they could talk to each other to the next guy to another.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So what is that? Wiring?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, we do a lot of installation, wiring. Equipment broke down, we repair that so --

KAREN BREWSTER: And that’s like radio coils, I don’t know. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: I don't know electronics.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, mostly electronics are -- Well, we start off when I went to that school there we start off from radio first. You know how it operates?

KAREN BREWSTER: Radio tube, vacuum tubes?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, that’s it, yeah, yeah. Start off from that one, and transistors after that. After that, we do -- make TV’s and we install -- make kits and all that.

'Cause seventy-five percent of electronics was in TVs at that time then. Right now, it’s wow! KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: You can do anything like it right now in your hands, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Right. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Uh-huh. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, that’s -- Our main project was make sure there's communication, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. So they had radios and things like that? Telephones? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, all that. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Hm-mm.

KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. And you said you worked for RCA for 13 years?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, six years after they'd lost the contract to ITT for the last six years, seven years, I think it was.

Every -- every three years they come up for a contract who'd be the lowest bidder to supply communication to Air Force people. So that goes out on a bid.

KAREN BREWSTER: Uh-huh. And did they -- did ITT then hire you?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No. They just transfer us. Yeah, they just transfer us. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, so you kept your -- VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: We -- we -- we kept our -- Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: You kept your job?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Otherwise, they wouldn't have no technicians at all. So they could --

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Did they appreciate having you -- somebody who'd been there so long and you knew everything?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, and very much, yeah. I get along real well, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, 'cause that makes a big difference. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah. And I have no problem.

KAREN BREWSTER: You knew how all those systems work, probably.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: I do. I have to. You had to. Being a top tech, you have to. Yeah, fourteen steps to make top techs, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And then those new guys don’t know those things so -- VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: It was good to keep you around.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: I think so. It was -- it's rewarding, very rewarding.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, it was re -- I was going to say, was it a good job?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Very good job. Very good job, yeah.

A lot of stress at first, you know, if you don’t know what's going to happen. But then, after a while, after you learn the system it sinks right in, so, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did -- did people around here think about the Cold War and Russia's just over there and planes coming around and -- ?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Um, not -- I don’t -- I don't really -- I don’t really know about that Cold War like that, but -- hm.

KAREN BREWSTER: Working for White Alice did that -- Did you think about that working with, you know, these Russian threat? Did that worry you?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Not really. Not really. Yeah, 'cause my job was just to keep communications and whatever the Air Force do that -- do the work, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: You weren’t worried about Russia coming and putting a bomb down? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No, no, no, no, no.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did you ever see planes flying over Kotzebue?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No, I never did. No. But they never come around when they're tracking them down just like -- Like I said, most --

Like I say, Cape Lisburne was pretty -- pretty bad for that, but they would watch them out there 'til they crossed the -- the meridian lines, yeah, yeah. They track them all the time.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. No red alert?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, we -- They do push the button now and then, you know, when they get too -- on this side.

They'd be crawling in real slow, and when the minute they press the button for the hot line, 'cause they would intercept it from Fairbanks with a jet, and so --

But the minute we -- they press it, well, they know it, and they just "boom" right back. They’d intercept that signal, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: At Cape Lisburne when that was happening, those Air Force guys, did they get worried?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No, they're -- they're trained to do that, yeah. They're not -- They just do their job and know whatever they doing so -- I guess, they did good, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. 'Cause, you know, Cold War, Cuban Missile Crisis, Washington, D.C., everybody was very worried. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: During the Cold War. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: But you guys out here at the stations were like, "Ah, whatever." VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, that’s about it, I guess, yeah,

KAREN BREWSTER: It's different. Yeah.

So do you think having those Air Force stations, White Alice and those other places, was that a good thing to have here or -- ?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: It was very good, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it was --

'Cause the way -- a White Alice, in case there's a war, if it do its job for 30 minutes it pay for itself.

If there was a bomb or something, but the communications for 30 minutes to warn everybody and all that. It would pay for itself right there. That’s the size of a White Alice.

KAREN BREWSTER: Right. So you felt safe having it here?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Very much, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: What about for the community, for Kotzebue? Was it -- Did -- did it bring good things to Kotzebue or negative things to Kotzebue?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Not that I know of. Might be a lot of few babies out here. No, I never.

KAREN BREWSTER: It brought jobs? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Pardon me? KAREN BREWSTER: It brought some jobs for people.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah. Very few out there, but they do get it. Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah.

'Cause they come to town now and then, you know. Not every -- every day, I guess they come down.

KAREN BREWSTER: But it, you know, gave you a job? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. It gave some other people a few jobs. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Maybe that was good for the economy?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, that was a real challenge, you know, being -- working for White Alice system, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: How was it a challenge?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, being able to maintain the equipment for the -- for the Air Force that was your big challenge. Make sure everything works.

We do a lot of re -- I mean, every week we had a routine of what we had to check out. Certain -- every day, every month or so, all the equipment. Make sure we got spares to replace them and all that. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, so how did you get parts?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: We had -- we do -- Well, a lot of parts, extra parts for every equipment out there handy.

It's more or less resistors in the -- when they usually go out, so we'd do troubleshooting and replace those or whatever tubes, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you always had to have a good supply on hand? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, oh, yeah, have to. Yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did it ever happen something broke and you didn’t have the part? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, we always had spare. KAREN BREWSTER: For everything? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Everything had a spare. Yeah, we had spare transmitters and spare receivers all the time on hand. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And Cape Lisburne, how did all those parts get out there?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: There's lots. Like I said, there're always all kinds of stacked parts out there.

KAREN BREWSTER: But they -- They had an airstrip and the Air Force flew things in?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: The RCA still have a -- put out a contract, you know. Supplies, you know, for the low -- they bid them out. KAREN BREWSTER: Okay.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: And get the parts whenever they can cache them, and they're pretty well set up good.

KAREN BREWSTER: But they had a runway and they’d fly things in?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, yeah, there's a -- big planes can fly up there. I mean, just like Ford motor planes used to fly right in there, so, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. 'Cause they supplied the Air Force. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Needed food. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, food.

KAREN BREWSTER: They fed you, I hope. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Were you allowed to go hunting out at Cape Lisburne?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No, no, no, no. We’re not allowed to -- We're not allowed to go out and hunting and that. Maybe we were, but I didn’t know. But we were so busy, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So, yeah, out at Cape Lisburne when you had time off, what did you do? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, it's only one day.

KAREN BREWSTER: One day off a week? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: What did you do on that one day? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Go to the bar.

KAREN BREWSTER: They had a bar out there, too, huh? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah. Bowling alleys, bars, movies. KAREN BREWSTER: Even -- even out there, huh? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, all over there, KAREN BREWSTER: Movies? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They had everything set up.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Well, that’s kind of all my questions. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, I’m glad you -- Anything else? I don't know --

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, I know. You were saying it was -- it was challenging to work out there. It was hard. It was stressful.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: At first, you know. If you don’t know at first, you know, what equipment is going to break down and there's always an alarm the minute something go wrong.

It'll pinpoint you just like this, you know, what’s blinking. Something's wrong right there, but there is --

You got spare parts or you could patch them over to different equipment, so --

KAREN BREWSTER: And the shifts you worked, what hours?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: We worked nine hours a day, six days a week. It's like day shift, swing shift started at three o’clock 'til midnight.

Day shift started at 7:30 'til 4:30. Midnight to eight.

KAREN BREWSTER: Did you always work the same shift?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No, no, no. We would work one shift -- one shift at a time and just keep transferring over, day, nights and evenings.

KAREN BREWSTER: And but after a certain point you had a family, right? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Was that hard to have that schedule and raise your family?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: In ways, in ways. Yet didn’t really bother me though, yeah.

But we had -- sometimes when you're on night shifts, you had to go home and sleep, but the kids were young then, too, it's -- Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And what about for hunting, did you still -- ? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, I do. KAREN BREWSTER: -- have time to go hunting?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, I do a lot of hunting locally. When, in fact, some time I wake up early in the morning and go to work three o’clock after I'm out hunting around.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Did you have a trapline then? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah. We used to have a trapline. I set trapline, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So you ran your trapline still and then go to work?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, yeah. With snowgo’s you can go a distance, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: But that’s hard. That’s kind of two jobs. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Hunting and --

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Young days, you know, it doesn’t bother you.

KAREN BREWSTER: Hunting and trapping one job, RCA job number two. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Hm-mm.

KAREN BREWSTER: I should ask Elsie how she felt with you being gone so much. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: She might have --

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: She -- she was also working, too, yeah, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh yeah.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: We didn’t have kids until after a year or so. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. That if she was home more? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: So how -- how did you learn English? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: English? KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: At school, at home Noatak. I was born and raised up Noatak. Inland about sixty miles in. Yeah, that’s -- that's how we learn from BIA school long time ago. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. And then you went out and -- ? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Mt. Edgecumbe.

KAREN BREWSTER: Mt. Edgecumbe, and you got better and better? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah, more getting bett -- There you go, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: 'Cause I was thinking all that electronics must've been in English and was that hard to learn all that?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No, if you know the math, it goes right in there. Lots of math in there. We had to --

We study math when we go through that training all the way to part calculus. That's when you start designing it how the tubes operate and all that, so it involves a lot of calculus, trigonometry and all that. So just a lot of math work.

KAREN BREWSTER: You must be smart. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, thank you, but I love math. I love math, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: You always liked math? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: That’s the one they -- they were looking for people with a math background 'cause there is a lot of math. Yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, neat.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, I think I did well at Mt. Edgecumbe. When I get my transcript, there was 154 graduated from there, so I was glad to be number fourth over all that so.

KAREN BREWSTER: That’s pretty good.

So after White Alice shut down, what year was that -- in the '70s? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: '70s, ’75, around there. KAREN BREWSTER: '75?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah. They went -- they went satellite just to mean that -- there's just like that radar out there, yeah.

They just tore these White Alice system down between the Air Force site out there about three, four years ago.

KAREN BREWSTER: So all those White Alice towers are gone, right? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: And the DEW -- the Air Force part's satellite? Remote something. Yeah. So what did you do after '75?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: I went back to work -- I went back to work as a carpenter, yeah, with a main outfit do a lot of carpenter work.

And that was about it. I went back to work carpentry and building a lot of houses around here. In fact, I was the project foreman when they built the jail over here locally, so -- which I'd pitch right back in there. KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: After that, there was an opening at school for a maintenance carpenter, so I've been right in there again for 13 years until I retire at 69.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, so are you glad you had the opportunity at White Alice to -- ? Was that a good --

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, that was a real, real rewarding, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's very challenging and makes you think a little bit more. You could think it more advance, too, you know, for -- for what you can do. Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. Are there any other stories from working there that you remember?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Well, the thing of it sometime was my wife would be a little bit lonesome when -- sometime --

One time, I couldn’t even go home three days on account of storm from -- from out here. KAREN BREWSTER: 'Cause why? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Three days a storm was --

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, a storm. You were stuck, yeah.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: I tell you, I had a place to stay inside there, but I couldn’t go home. The roads were closed in and all that so.

KAREN BREWSTER: How far is it? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Four miles. KAREN BREWSTER: That's four miles.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, from locally over here, yeah.

But they do have a trackmaster that goes over snow and all that to haul us in and out when the road closed.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah, so how’d you get -- Did they have a man haul they’d come and pick up people for jobs? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Oh, yeah, yeah. KAREN BREWSTER: Or you had to drive yourself?

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No, no, the White Alice, they supply them trucks for our use to go back and forth to work. KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, you had your own -- ? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Not personal use, but going back and forth to work.

So the guy that gets off shift work, would come down with a truck and I’d take it back, and that’s how we operated with the truck.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. Yeah, but if the road's blown in, you can’t get through with the truck.

VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: No, no, but they do have -- what do they call these trackmaster with the tracks with that big -- that we use those, yeah.

But when whiteout conditions, when you can’t see, we don’t bother.

KAREN BREWSTER: Yeah. Three days is a long time to -- VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: That's the most I ever stayed out there, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: They never run out of food? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: We always have a lot of standby food, yeah, in the -- But White Alice to Air Force, we keep for lunch and all that.

KAREN BREWSTER: Oh, okay. You went over to Air Force side? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: That’s where we eat all the time, yeah, yeah.

KAREN BREWSTER: Cool. Aarigaa. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Yeah, all right.

KAREN BREWSTER: Unless there's any other stories? VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Not really.

KAREN BREWSTER: Okay. VIRGIL NAYLOR, SR.: Okay. KAREN BREWSTER: Quyana.