Digital Asset Information
Project: Dog Mushing in Alaska Project Jukebox
Date of Interview: Feb 21, 1986
Narrator(s): Moses Cruikshank
Interviewer(s): Bill Schneider
Transcriber: Steven Street
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Archdeacon Hudson Stuck's dog team and his lead dog, "Muk"
Muk freezing his tail to the ice
Gunga Din, another special dog
Dog musher, Arthur Wright
Differences between modern dogs and dogs used in his younger days
Different types of dogs
Using dogs in summer to pack loads
Caring for Archdeacon Hudson Stuck's dogs in Nenana while he climbed Mt. McKinley
The Native boys who took care of Stuck's dogs and helped with the expedition
New breed of dog introduced by Reverend Thomas
His grandmother's role in his life
Interaction of Natives and stampeders along the Yukon River
Attending Mt. Herman School
Walter Harper, dog driver on the Stuck Expedition
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WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: Today is February 21, 1986, and Moses Cruikshank is here at the Archives with me, Bill Schneider, and we're going to pick up a couple of the stories that will he good for the book. Fill in a couple of gaps that we have.
One of the stories I think that people will be really interested in hearing is the story of Hudson Stuck's dogs, because some of the people who'll be reading the book will be church people from outside and they'll know about Hudson Stuck, but they may not know that he had a dog team and how he got around.
So, glad you can be here today, and we'll start with that one.
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Yes, I remember Archdeacon Stuck's dogs, and of course when you talk about dog teams, you always talk about the head dog in that team.
That's the leader. And one of the best known leaders in those days was Archdeacon Stuck's lead dog, and the name of that dog was "Muk".
Archdeacon had that leader for a number of years, making his visitations to all the interior villages, and this dog was well known.
And every time he came to a village there, why even the youngsters knew the dog "Muk."
So, everybody went in there just to see that dog too, besides the Archdeacon.
He was a well known dog, and of course he was a first class leader. A good dog out on the trail, and that was Muk.
And I was dog boy down at Nenana and I took care of Muk after he was retired from work and we kept him down there at Nenana for a number of years, yes. And everybody knew Muk. Everybody in the mission there.
All the kids there. Everybody knew about Muk. They come out there, the dog yard, I got yard out there where I kept dogs.
They all come out there to see Muk. And then people coming through Nenana there, they, they all come to visit the mission there, and of course they have to go out and see Muk, the Archdeacon Stuck's dog.
He was a well known dog. And he stayed there. We kept him there -- of course until he was --pass away, yes.
I like to tell a little story about him. You know, it was in the spring of the year, you know, it was after no more forty or fifty below weather and the days were getting longer.
Well, I had the dog yard out there, and I had a good dog house for Muk, you know, and no, it's too warm for him so he got to sleep out there.
He didn't sleep inside his dog house. He slept out there where there's ice, you know. And one morning , you know there's long days now in the spring of the year, and one of the first things we did in the mission there in the morning when we get up,
oh everybody gathered together in the big room there, you know and we have our prayers.
We sing a song and then we say a few prayers before we go on our daily duties.
And we're all gathered there, the boys, the big boys, and the little girls and the big girls who all in different groups there, you know, and already to say our prayers.
And somebody heard Muk making noise. They look through, and sure enough, Muk was out there.
Oh, my golly. They all had to run out there to see what was wrong with him. It was the spring of the year, you know, and he slept out there on the ice.
He didn't want to sleep out there inside his dog barn, or wherever it was nice and dry here, there and everything.
And his body heat, you know, formed ice there and it froze his tail to the ice there and he couldn't get loose.
Boy, everybody rushed out there and everybody helped him get loose. I remember that. He was so well known, and loved by everyone, that Muk.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: How'd you finally get him loose?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Oh I got knife and chipped it loose, yeah. I chipped it loose, yeah.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: I think it might be interesting -- some of the people don't realize that some of your dogs came from Arthur Wright, is that correct?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Yes, and the one big dog that we got from Arthur Wright, I remember was Gunga Din.
Oh, he must have weighed about a hundred pounds or even a little bit over. Powerful, broad shouldered dog, that one.
He was a worker from way back. And he did quite a lot in helping us train this new dog team that Kobuk Dick and I were getting organized.
We had a lot of young dogs on that team to break in.
And some of them would learn fast, but others needed a little training, you know. And that's where Gunga Din came in, you know. And when you got out on those training runs, you know, Kobuk Dick he'd go right with me, right from the start.
Right from the start. Well everything I knew about the trail I learned from Kobuk Dick. And how to take care of dogs and everything. I learned from him, you know.
And we're out there. Then after we get through our run then we come back and I start unhooking the dogs, you know.
And the last dog I unhook was Gunga Din. He -- I tied all the other dogs here and there, you know.
I remember, I'd take Gunga Din back and he’d break away and he'd give those young dogs a doggone good licking, you know. He don't hurt them, but he give them a good lick---and Dick says, "Let him go, he's training those young dogs.
He's making good dogs out of them." So he did his share of helping to train those dogs.
He was a wonderful dog, that Gunga Din.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: You mentioned Arthur Wright. He was one of the first --
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: So far as I know, he was one of the first dog mushers for our ministers.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: And that was before you started?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Oh that's way before my time, yes. Way before Walter Harper's time, too. Just before Walter Harper, Arthur Wright was the first one out on the trail with our ministers.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: So he had to train dogs and --
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Oh yes, he had -- he traveled on the trail with them. And then he trained, he would train a team, you know, and that would be passed on to the mission.
Mission work. Of course he didn't. He went from there out to, in those days the only school where Native kids can go, was outside, you know, these territorial schools were not for Natives.
So he went outside to get to those schools out there, after he traveled on the trail a few years with our ministers, yes.
He went to Mt. Herman, back in Massachusetts, the same school that Walter Harper went to.
And the same school that John Fredson went to.
John Fredson, you know, he graduated from there and he went to college and he earned a degree there in education, I guess.
And he came back and he worked quite a number of years for the state, you know, as a teacher, John Fredson.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: And that's the same school you went to?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Same school, yeah. Mt. Herman.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: And then when Arthur Wright came back, what did he do?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: He went to work as a missionary and he married a nurse, one of the missionary nurses, and then he had his family.
And he was stationed up at Tanana Crossing, and he was stationed at Nenana, too. He was stationed here and there.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: And his wife’s name was --
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: That was Mertle Rose, that was his wife's name. Yeah. Mertle Rose. I remember that well.
Yes. 'Cause after they got married, they had children. I used to baby sit Arthur, Gareth Wright and Don.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: And of course when we think about dog mushing today and think about the racing in particular, those are big names.
Gareth Wright and his daughter, I guess, Roxie, huh?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: I believe, yes, yes, they are in that racing game and I understand they're really good at it and they have made a name for themselves in the racing game.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: But these dogs today are a lot different then --
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: The dogs they have nowadays is a whole lot different from the dogs we had.
The dogs they have nowadays are built for speed, you know, and they're quite a bit different from the dogs we had in those days.
Of course, they -- those days we wanted dogs that could pull load, you know, working dogs.
Nowadays there's nothing for a team to go out and make twenty or thirty mile.
They're meant to have that -- a run back, nothing in 'em. In them days, we'd go all day. Travel you know, and cover twenty, twenty-five miles.
Of course it all depends on the condition of the trail, too. But we--we didn't make long runs. We couldn't make long runs in those days because we had a big load. Load on the trail.
We had to portage everything ourselves. There were no road houses or anything.
When you're out on the trail in those days you're on your own. You can't depend on anybody. You depend on yourself.
And we had to plan ahead of time. Things for yourself and for the dogs.
Everything they plan, they had -- of course, when you're out on the trail sometimes you're stranded, sometimes when it's cold.
You can't always travel when it's fifty, sixty, seventy below, you know. You camp right there, you're lucky if you camp right there with a bunch of wood.
And if you happen to be in a village, why stay there until that cold spell is over.
It's no use to travel when it's so cold. You ruin good dogs that way.
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: He was --
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: This is Arthur Wright?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: -- earliest recorded driver for our ministers. Yes, and he had a lot a do with the type of dogs.
His job was to pick out dogs, you know. Work dogs. Great big, well built, powerful dogs you wanted in those days.
In those days, there was a lot of dogs in the Interior. Indian dogs, you know. But there was these long legged, long bodied, floppy-eared dogs.
They were good, good work dogs, but they're nothing like these other dogs you see.
Of course later on, you know, the dogs came in, came in from the coast. These beautiful malamutes and all that. Spike eared and all that.
They came later. But these Indian dogs I'm talking about, they're, as I said, they're long, long bodied, long legged, and floopy-eared, but they're good work dogs.
You can put them on a sled and they'll pull and they'll work all day so that's all you have to do for them.
And then you could use them for pack dogs, too. In those days people traveled in winter and summer, you know, and we depended on our dogs.
And these same dogs we use for driving out on the trail, we use them in the summer for packing.
They can pack a load.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: While we're on that subject of packing, talk about some of your experiences packing dogs.
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Yes. As I told you, when I was out on my own, after I struck out on my own, I did a lot of prospecting in the Interior.
The interior of Alaska, over the Chandalar country, east fork country, and from Buffalo Shirt, all the way in from there.
I did a lot of prospecting, and I traveled around winter and summer. And summer time we had our dogs, they carried packs. Packs.
You have to see that pack is the correct size, and then you load it properly so that it doesn't hurt the dog. You have to be awfully careful of that. Some of those packs that they made.
Some of those prospectors, they made pack out of canvas, you know, and they made them too big. And when you load them, they're way down on the dog, and they rubbed down on their legs.
Now that's not very good. Those made out of canvas. But those Native made ones, those Native made ones, are made out of caribou leg skins, you know.
Among the Natives, they save every piece of skin. Every time they getcaribou leg they save the skin. It's tanned and put to the one side for later use.
And these Native made dog packs are made out of these tanned caribou leg skins. Oh yeah, they're nice strong packs.
Well built. And then they rode high on the dog. They didn't come down low and bother their legs and stuff like that.
They road high, but you had to have a pack strap on there to tie it down.
They have a strap about eight or ten feet long and it's about an inch and a half, two inches wide, and after you get the pack on the dog, and then you tie it down with this certain hitch.
A dog pack hitch that they had to put on there so the pack will stay on the top of the dog.
You have to tie it down, otherwise it will fall off. As I said, these prospectors, they try these low packs, but that's no good.
Ruin the dog's legs. It will rub down there, you know. It'll rub all the skin, you know. It's no good at all.
You had to have the pack way up high, where you could use -- tie it down with the pack strap and it will stay there.
That's the best packs that I've seen. As I said, these low packs, they're no good at all. They hurt the dog and they're no good.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: Is there a special hitch you were talking about?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Yes, there is a special dog pack hitch. If you had a strap and a dog pack I could show you.
I've done it so darn many times. In early days, that's all the means of transportation we had, was by dog pack in the summer time. I spent good many years in the Interior prospecting.
I did a lot of work in the Interior. I got boilers scattered all over in there.
Two, three, three boilers I got in there. Scattered there. Prospecting outfit, you know. Prospect boilers.
I worked like everything to get them in there and then after working in that area I moved to another area and then I get another boiler.
That old boiler's too far away. Too much trouble to get it, you know, than I got another new one and that's the way we used to work.
I did a lot of work. I did a lot of prospecting. But I guess I was one of those guys scheduled never to strike it rich.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: And you'd pack the dogs when you were prospecting?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Oh yes, in the summer time was the only transportation we had. Packing, moving around from creek to creek.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: How many dogs would you use?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Oh, I had about four or five dogs. Pack dogs. I use the same dogs for sled use in the winter.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: And they hold a pretty good load?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Oh, it all depends on the dog. If it's a well, if it's an old pack dog he can put quite of bit of load on him.
But breaking in a pack dog you had to be awful careful not to put in too big of a load at the start, you know.
If you put in some light load and sometime, or you put a pack on a dog for the first time, you know, why he'll buck just like a horse.
He can't get it off then he'll roll around all over and oh he'll have a heck of a time, but he'll learn. He'll learn. After he learns, he learns to take care of that pack.
Yes. He won't go in where there’s water until you tell him to. Sometime you come to a creek, it's too deep, you know, and you have to take the packs off and you pack it across yourself.
The dogs come across and you put them on again on the other side.
But they won't go in a creek while they got that load on when they know it will get that stuff wet -- they know, those dogs. Yeah.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: Is there any pack dog that you have that you remember that was particularly good?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Oh, they were all pretty good. They were well trained, yeah.
And seems like, after you get -- they take responsibility of looking after that pack, you see. So, those dogs are really good. They're smart, yeah.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: Let's backup to Archdeacon Stuck and, that summer that he climbed the mountain. Did he leave most of his dogs at Nenana that time?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Yes, he left all of his dogs there at Nenana.
Because that's where, that's where we had that -- there's a good place for fishing there, you know.
And right across from the mission the bluff there. Sometimes we had two wheels, so believe me that kept us busy.
We had, oh five, six hundred fish. The big boys and big girls, keep them busy. You know, to take care of that fish. But they did. They know how to take care of it.
They dry it and some of that good fish, like the king salmon, they'd cut so that people could eat it too, you know. And they would put up a lot of salt salmon too. Salmon bellies.
They put up quite a lot of fish there, at St. Mark's mission, there. The big boys and the big girls there. We had those fish wheels over there at the bluff and I remember we had great big old poling boat.
There’s two places to row on that kind, so it takes four kids, you know, to make that boat travel. And, one in the stern, the pilot, you know. Great big old boat.
We'd row cross to the wheels there and just load down with fish, yeah. Two, three hundred sometimes.
We'd come back across and then they start cutting up the fish for drying and then some of that fish they'd put up for salting. Salt salmon for the mission school.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: Were you at the mission the year that he did the climb?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Yes, Yes. I went to the mission school there.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: That year that Archdeacon went up the mountain?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Yes.The first year that he went to Nenana there.
That was back in 19 -- I went to St. Mark's school in 1913. And they had just gotten through with their mountain climbing then. Yes.
And all those dogs were there. And I remember the boys that took part in the work there. Like Elias George and Elum Kellam and John Fredson, they did a lot of work.
You know, they helped the expedition. Like hauling freight and everything. Way out there. It took alot of work, you know. To get a trip like that. An organization like that going, you know.
Way up there. And John Fredson, he was the one. Let's see, there was John Fredson, and Elum Kellam and Elias George, those three Native boys. They were the ones who did a lot of freighting, you know, all spring.
Getting that stuff. And then the -- oh the other boys, Elum Kellem and Elias George, they brought back the extra dogs and extra sleds and everything back from Nenana. And John Fredson was one of the ones left at the base camp.
He stayed there with a few dogs and looked after the camp while the rest of them, Archdeacon Stuck and Mr. Karstens, and Mr. Tatum and Walter Harper, four of them,
they’re the ones that climbed the mountain there, Mt. McKinley. I remember them well. I was just a kid then, when I remember them, when they come through Nenana.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: So when they came back you had just gotten to the Mission?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Yeah I had just gotten to St. Mark's Mission in Nenana, there. And they left all the dogs there, the place where we took care of dogs, you know.
Of course, it was easy to get feed there, dog feed, you know. At this big fish camp right there on the bank there. We took care of Archdeacon Stuck's dogs.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: That's a real good story because it ties in with some of the written accounts by Archdeacon Stuck of going up the mountain and it's nice to hear some of the other sides of it --
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Oh yes, uh huh.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: -- the preparation that was needed and the role of some of the Native --
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Yes, like those boys there, like Elum Kellem, Elias George, and John Fredson. Those three boys. They freighted all spring, you know.
All winter they freighted stuff up there. And they did quite a bit to help on that expedition.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: And I think John Fredson stayed at the base camp.
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Yeah, he stayed at the base camp, there. Took care of the camp and the few dogs that was left there.
When they came down off the mountain then they took off from there and they used these dogs for pack dogs, you know.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: Did they come back through Nenana?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Yeah they came back through. Yeah they came back by the water, but the Nenana --that's where they left the dogs.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: Talking about dogs --
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Talking about dogs, yeah. Walter Harper’s favorite dog, I remember was this great big dog. Some dog like Gunga Din. He was a powerful built dog.
Snowball was his name. That was Walter Harper's favorite dog, I remember. He was a big black and white dog. A wonderful worker. He was a great dog. That was Walter Harper's favorite dog, I remember.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Reverend Thomas, he came from. -- these days there was no airplanes, or search and rescue, anything like that.
It was all dog team. And it was quite an undertaking to come from Point Barrow to come to Nenana, you know, cross-country.
That was quite a trip. And that’s what Reverend Thomas did. They came in with five teams and he brought his wife with him and everything, and their five teams.
They came in there, and they came to Nenana, and they brought in a bunch of dogs. And these dogs they brought was dogs the people used out on the coast there. Eskimo dogs.
These beautiful, well built, powerfully built dogs with spike-eared and colored gray and black -- colored like a wolf. Those were the first times we had dogs of that type come into the Interior.
And when they was on his way out to the states, then, you know, he had to go down all the way to St. Michael's after the river broke, you know, and go by boat, you know.
Left all of the dogs there. They wanted to get rid of them all, but I was, as I said, I was dog wild. Just a kid then, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't kill any of these dogs.
We had a lot of dog feed. It meant a lot more work for me, but I didn't mind that at all. I gave these dogs away to people that come to Nenana there. Like the people from down Tanana.
Down below lower Tanana. They come through Nenana there. In those days, people used to come to Nenana to put in a season's work.
That's the only place people could come to make a grub steak, you know, they're building the railroad there in those days. Oh and everybody came there looking for work. During the season, you know.
And, has all these dogs, and people would come there -- I gave these dogs away to those people that could use them, you know, and I know would take care of those dogs.
They were beautiful dogs, you know, spike eared, beautifully built dogs, yes. And that way we saved all of them, yeah.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: And you kind of changed the dog population, huh?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Yes -- there was -- since that time, there’s a new breed of dogs started in the Interior. These beautiful spike-eared dogs that you see. They were from that bunch came from Point Barrow.
Before that there was only great big floppy-eared dogs, you know. Now after that you see these beautiful dogs, nice spike-eared, lively dogs.
They were originally from Point Barrow, that bunch that Reverend Thomas brought into the Interior in those days.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: Do you know what type of minister he was?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: He was an Episcopalian minister.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: Episcopalian.
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Yeah, Episcopalian.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: That’s good -- that’s a good one -- you talked quite a bit about Grandpa Henry -- MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Yeah, uh huh. WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: -- how about your grandma?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Well, my grandma was there and she took care of the household. She'd see that the things are done on time. That the fish are cut and dried and taken care of. Those fish have to be turned, you know, at certain times.
And then you have to keep a smoke smudge under them, you know, so that they get smoked and keep the flies away from them, you know.
Oh, she was busy. She was the boss. Yeah, she'd look after everything. And she'd look after the kids, you know. Look after the family. And then she was quite a hunter, too.
In those days, Native women had to be just like a man. They had to be able to handle a rifle, you know. know. I remember her rifle -- thirty, what, what, what model? '92, I think it was.
A lever action, 30-30. She had that handy at all times. Don't nobody dare touch that rifle, yeah. Not even grandpa. Grandpa, he had his own 30-30, yeah. too, you know. The old man had to tell them what to do, with this old 30-30 to back them up, you know. They come there and they're half drunk, you know.
And, I guess they, don't mean no harm, but when they see that 30-30, that's the top of their mind, you know. Old grandpa would have used it to oh, no fooling around with old grandpa.
Yeah, yeah, he gave them all the fish they wanted.
Some of them paid and some of them don't. They have no money to pay, okay, yeah.
A lot of dried, fish there, or rather, a rack there, drying fish. Some of those well cured fish, you know, alot of them wanted that so he gave it to them, yeah.
Yeah, some mighty fine people amongst those early days stampeders. Wonderful people. As I said, you run across knot-heads here and there amongst them too, you know.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: Uh huh.
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Yeah -- the Miller family -- one of the Miller boys was going to Mt. Herman's school and he got --
I got acquainted with them and then every chance we had I would go home to their farm with them.
Well, they just took me in as one of their boys. Mr. and Mrs. Miller. And I spent all my time there, and I worked there, you know, there's seasonal work to be done there, and I was paid in wages there.
And of course my friend, he worked there too, you know. And I worked out in the fields, yes. We did a lot of work there. And It's a great big farm.
A lot of milk cows on there. Did a lot of work on that big farm.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: You mentioned a man too who was your councilor at Mt. Herman?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Oh, that was -- I can't think of the name now --
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: You played sports at Mt. Herman, too.
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: The first season there, yeah, I was a regular student there, you know. My, my -- it was paid for by the church, you know, so I was a full student. I had time to play, I played football, yeah.
Later on when the money got low, then I had to work as a -- I was a working student, you know.
I didn't have time for sports. I had to work and take one or two classes, you know and work. Money was short, you know.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: We’re talking about Walter Harper and you were saying --
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Yeah, he was the athletic type, you know. Like at Mt. Herman there, the records he made there, and running.
He was a great cross-country runner. He made quite a few runs out there, and besides in all of the other sports, he was up at the tops. He was quite a guy along that line, yeah, Walter Harper.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: And you were mentioning that on that expedition with Hudson Stuck, he was the first to --
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: I understand he was the first one to reach the top, yeah.
He was in the lead when they got up on there, and after they get up there so high, it's -- Archdeacon had trouble breathing, you know.
The air was kind of thin up there, I guess, or something. All the way up in there, and anyway they -- Walter Harper was in the lead when they reached the top there, so I understand, yes.
What you call there, when I was a kid there, you know he --
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER: Walter Harper?
MOSES CRUIKSHANK: Walter Harper, yeah. He was there and, you know, he was the dog driver for Archdeacon Stuck,
and Archdeacon Stuck's headquarters at that time was at Fort Yukon, yes.
Yes, he took care of the boy's clubs, too. He helped the boy's clubs there, Archdeacon Stuck organized boy's clubs and Walter Harper really helped those clubs along.
Like in those skating clubs and then boxing and wrestling and all that. Walter Harper was right there to help the boys along. Get them organized, you know.
He was really good at that, yes. And Archdeacon was strong on that too, you know. On getting the boys -- getting them organized. Organized athletics, that's what Archdeacon was strong on that.
He was good with his fists, Archdeacon Stuck was, yes. He was good with his fists, I remember. Boxing, you know. Wrestling, too, yeah.